They're not describing the "same scenes". GC 662-665 includes specific details not covered in the other passages. Yes, they are talking about the same general time period, but they do not describe the same details. GC 662-665 makes it clear that the wicked do not die or wish to die during their initial exposure to truth and the glory of God. This point is indisputable. Yes, they will eventually die. But they will not wish to die. They will fight to live. True, if they were forced into heaven, forced to live with the saints in a sinless world they would wish to escape or die, but this point is merely theoretical since it will never happen.

As you know, much of what you deem "reasonable" the rest of the world deems fiction or fairy tales. Your argument doesn't hold water. How can billions of people, speaking hundreds of different languages, exclaim with "one" voice, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!"? I am willing to allow for the fact it might not be English, but it will be the same language. Otherwise, it would sound like chaos, not like one voice.

"Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips."

This is not a significant point. Each of the descriptions discusses different points. That doesn't meant they're dealing with different subjects.



You're not considering the other statements. You don't deny that GC 541-543 is dealing with the final judgment of the wicked, do you? Or DA 764? Or DA 108? From these passages we learn that certain principles apply to the judgment. For example, from DA 108 we learn that the wicked choose to die, that their death is the result of their own choice, as opposed to something God does to them. In GC 543 we learn that the choice of the wicked to be excluded from heaven is voluntary with themselves.

I'm not seeing how your ideas are taking into account these insights in regards to the judgment of the wicked.



My whole point was that it wouldn't be in English. Given that you accept this to be true, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you didn't just so say immediately, rather than dispute this point as you have been.

"Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips."

The point is - GC 662-665 makes it clear that the wicked do not die or wish to die during their initial exposure to truth and the glory of God.

It's been awhile since we last spoke, but I think the points I was making was that in GC 543 we see that the exclusion of the wicked from heaven is voluntary with themselves. The do not wish to be in heaven, for the reasons pointed out there.

I've also made the point that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

Regarding the quote you reference, isn't this before God has revealed the wicked their sins?

GC 662-665 describes the resurrection of the wicked and their initial exposure to the truth and to the glory of God - and they do not die, nor do they desire to die. That's the point. You seem to be arguing against this point. Why?

Even after they endure exposure to the truth and to the glory of God during the Great White Throne of judgment of their sins, they do not die, nor do they desire to die. Which is also the point.

By the way, her comments about the wicked not enjoying being in heaven in with the righteous is purely theoretical. It will never happen. The wicked will never be in heaven to learn they wouldn't enjoy it. Nevertheless, she doesn't conclude they would die or desire to die. They would simply rather live somewhere else.

So, I'm not finding support for your idea that the truth and the glory of God is what causes the resurrected wicked to die or to desire to die at the end of time. Instead, it is fire rained down from above and raised up from below that causes the wicked to suffer and die in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness. Which is also the point.

With these things in mind - Will Jesus change our character when He returns? Or, must the necessary and required changes happen before we die? How does this apply to the thief on the cross? Did he change his character sufficiently so that no further changes were necessary for him to be admitted to heaven? Or, did he possess certain unknown defective character traits that must be dealt with en route to heaven before being admitted therein?

I've haven't been addressing this point one way or the other, because this doesn't have to do with the point I was making. I have been pointing out that the exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves, that they do not wish to be in God's presence, and so forth. I have been pointing out that the light of the revelation of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. I have been pointing out that the destruction of the wicked is the result of their own choice.



"Enduring exposure" isn't the right way to look at this, IMO. If you look at the description of what happens in the judgment, and compare the statements in GC 541-543 and DA 764, it seems very clear that the wicked voluntary choose to be excluded from heaven, that their destruction is due to their own choices, and that the light of the glory of God, which gives lift to the righteous will slay the wicked. These are the points I've been making.



Heaven is being in God's presence. The wicked will experience this, and will not desire it.



DA 764 says this, quoting Christ ("All they that hate me love (choose) death").



DA 108 is very clear about this. Read the part about the glory of God destroying sin wherever it is found, and how those who insist on clinging to it will be destroyed. Also there's the statement I've been repeated citing which states that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will destroy the wicked. Also there's the statement in DA 764 which says that the glory of Him who is love will destroy them.



This isn't considering DA 108, DA 764, GC 541-543, and other places where she describes the judgment. It's just looking at a description of the vision, without considering the principles involved. Please consider DA 764, the two paragraphs starting with her stating that the destruction of the wicked is *not* due to an arbitrary act of power on God's part. It seems to me you keep asserting that it is.

Tom, if what you believe is true, how do you explain the fact that the resurrected sinners are neither slain or destroyed during their initial exposure to the truth or to the glory of God nor do they desire to die?

With these things in mind - Will Jesus change our character when He returns? Or, must the necessary and required changes happen before we die? How does this apply to the thief on the cross? Did he change his character sufficiently so that no further changes were necessary for him to be admitted to heaven? Or, did he possess certain unknown defective character traits that must be dealt with en route to heaven before being admitted therein?