Yes, He is.



Christ is their life.



This says the light of the glory of God gives life to the righteous.



I'm not following you. I was pointing out that you asked a pointless question, since you asked if people going to heaven would be kept out of heaven because of some characteristic they had. Obviously not, since they're going to heaven.

I also pointed out that I think focusing on sinful habits isn't the right thing to focus on. It seems like you're pretty much ignoring the points I made, and simply focussing on that which I just pointed out isn't the right thing to focus on.



Give an example please. I'm not sure what you're asking here.

It seems like there are two possibilities.

1.The theif on the cross was perfect.
2.He wasn't, but was going to heaven anyway (on the basis of something other than being perfect).

Are you asserting that 1. is the case? If not, then in what way was the thief on the cross not perfect?

The “light” in this quote is referring to the divine light that radiates from God’s person – not Jesus. If she had meant Jesus she would capitalized it (i.e. Light).

MH 36
The followers of Christ are to be the light of the world; but God does not bid them make an effort to shine. {MH 36.3}

MH 419
Christ, the Light of the world, veiled the dazzling splendor of His divinity and came to live as a man among men, that they might, without being consumed, become acquainted with their Creator. {MH 419.1}

EW 198
As Stephen stood before his judges, the light of the glory of God rested upon his countenance. {EW 198.1}

DA 137
The next day John sees Jesus coming. With the light of the glory of God resting upon him, the prophet stretches out his hands, declaring, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world! {DA 137.1}

LHU 78
Direct from the throne proceeded the light of the glory of God. The heavens were opened, and beams of light and glory proceeded therefrom and assumed the form of a dove, in appearance like burnished gold. The dovelike form was emblematical of the meekness and gentleness of Christ. {LHU 78.5}

Do you see the comparisons and contrasts in these passages?


When - at the resurrection? Also, are you implying the phrase, The light of the glory of God, is referring to Jesus? If so, does that mean Jesus will slay the wicked?


You wrote, “Obviously not, since they're going to heaven.” I agree. But my question is – When did they crucify the cultivated traits of character that would have prevented them from going to heaven? I’m focusing on victory, not sin.


“Will the thief be resurrected with the sinful cultivated traits of character he did not have time to confess and crucify?” My answer to this question is – No. He crucified all of his sinful cultivated traits of character before he died. He experienced the following:


In other words, he experienced a full and complete death to sin, self, and Satan. Nothing survived or was overlooked to be revealed later on. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying he died with all manner of cultivated sinful traits of character uncrucified. Or, did I misunderstand you?

MM, I think I can answer all your cultivated sinful trait questions at once simply by stating that I don't believe that when we are born again that we are morally perfect.

Regarding Jesus being the light of the glory of God, it's easy to see this in three ways:

1.The same thing, the "light of the glory of God," that gives life to the righteous slays the wicked. Jesus Christ gives life to the righteous. Therefore He is the "light of the glory of God." Clearly it cannot be the light that physically emanates from God because that light doesn't give life to the righteous.

2.Light = Revelation, Glory = Character. Jesus Christ is the revealer of the character of God; therefore He is the light of the glory of God.

3.The very next sentence after the "light of the glory of God statement" is: "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God."

Seeing this last sentence is what made me hit my forehead in disbelief at my slowness of comprehension. How many times had I quoted this sentence, about the light of the glory of God, without realizing it was Jesus Christ? As soon as I thought of it, it was easy to see how it all fits together.

Tom, if you do not believe people are born again morally perfect, does that mean you believe they are born again morally imperfect? Do you believe the thief died morally imperfect? If so, do you believe he will be resurrected morally imperfect?

Also, I agree with you that the title "the Light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus; however, I do not agree with you that the phrase "the light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus. I believe it refers to the brightness of His glory. "His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun." GC 641.

AA 117
When the glory was withdrawn, and Saul arose from the ground, he found himself totally deprived of sight. The brightness of Christ's glory had been too intense for his mortal eyes; and when it was removed, the blackness of night settled upon his vision. {AA 117.3}

CON 29
He saw the brightness of the Father's glory overshadowing the form of Jesus, thus pointing out in that crowd the One whom He acknowledged as His Son with unmistakable assurance. Con 29.1}

FLB 353
At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth, and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the city of God, and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants. {FLB 353.2}

AG 369
"And they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light" (Rev. 22:5). The light of the sun will be superseded by a radiance which is not painfully dazzling, yet which immeasurably surpasses the brightness of our noontide. The glory of God and the Lamb floods the Holy City with unfading light. The redeemed walk in the sunless glory of perpetual day. {AG 369.3}

There are many forms of light, some are harmless and helpful, while others are dangerous and destructive. Surely you can see from the passages quoted above that the light of God's glory is literal light. Do you?

Capitalizing a letter isn't what determines if to what or whom a passage refers. The context does.



The context doesn't fit. I presented you with 3 arguments demonstrated that "the light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus Christ. The easiest way to see this is by considering the very next sentence! "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God."

"Light of the glory of God" = "Revelation (or revealer) of the character of God"

Here's an example that your idea of capitalization is off. She refers to Christ as "the revealer of the character of God." The "r" in "revealer" is not capitalized, yet you can see that this refers to Christ, right?



In the passage under consideration, in DA 108, it's clearly *not* literal light, as the light referred to gives life to the righteous. Literal light does not give life to the righteous. I've made this point many times now. I don't believe you've acknowledged this point, which is easy to see. The same thing that gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked. You have never had an explanation for this.

Regarding the passages you gave, I'm not going to go through each one, but I'll consider the first one:



This could not have been a literal physical bright light because Saul was the only one who saw it.

Anyway, the fact that some passage somewhere speaks of literal light does not mean the one in DA 108 is. In fact, it is clear that it isn't, because the light referred to in DA 108 gives life to the righteous. Who gives life to the righteous? Jesus Christ.

I would say people are not born again morally perfect. Regarding the other two questions, I'm not sure how you would define "morally imperfect." It would be difficult to characterize one in heaven as morally imperfect. Perhaps "morally immature" would be a better term.

When one referred to Jesus as "good," Jesus replied, "Why do you call me good? Only God is good." I would have the same reaction to "morally perfect" as Jesus did to "good."

MM, if you think of yourself as morally perfect, then you have no need for mercy, do you?

Every time she capitalizes a word, as in the word "Light" quoted above, it refers to a title, especially when it refers to Divine titles. In this case, the title "Light" is referring to Jesus, and it may or may not be a reference to the brightness of His radiant glory. But when the word "light" (lower case) is used, instead of the word "Light" (upper case), it almost always refers to the dazzling brightness of His radiant glory, which outshines the sun.

Can you think of a different word she uses to describe the fact Jesus glows, shines more brightly than our sun?


Here's the context (what you call the very next sentence is actually in the very next paragraph):

DA 107, 108
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Let’s take a closer look at this paragraph. “To sin, wherever found, ‘our God is a consuming fire.’ Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin.” The Holy Spirit is compared to a consuming fire. He consumes sin in penitent sinners. This form of fire obviously does not consume sinful flesh.

The next part reads: “But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.” This form of fire destroys sin, but it also destroys sinful flesh in the process. Sinners are, in this case, collateral damage.

Moving on to the next section: “Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence.” In this case, the revelation of God’s physical presence, seeing Him face to face, did not destroy sinful flesh.

And then: “But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed.” In such cases, the revelation of God’s physical presence destroyed sinful flesh. I suppose she has Nadab and Abihu in mind.

Finally: “At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed ‘with the Spirit of His mouth,’ and destroyed ‘with the brightness of His coming.’ 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.” Here she compares “the light of the glory of God” to “the brightness of His coming”, which destroys the wicked when Jesus arrives in the clouds of glory. This same bright, divine light source imparts life to the righteous. See my comments below.


You’re right, Tom, she didn’t always capitalize titles. But note the following capitalized titles:

COL 37
Ever since the fall of man, Christ had been the Revealer of truth to the world. {COL 37.1}

PK 499
Their lives were spared because of Daniel's connection with the Revealer of secrets. {PK 499.3}

4BC 1166
He is revealed as the monarch of the universe, about to set up His everlasting kingdom--the Ancient of days, the living God, the Source of all wisdom, the Ruler of the present, the Revealer of the future. {4BC 1166.4}


Actually, Tom, literal light is a source of life and death in many different situations. Too much or too little light is a contributing factor in death. Just the right amount and kind of light is a contributing factor in life. Check out these links:

http://www.astronomynotes.com/light/s3.htm
http://sciencelinks.jp/content/view/33/33/

The light of the glory of God is a form of light that can give life or take life. Of course, it is not the only factor involved. Whether or not a person lives or dies in the presence of divine light depends on the type of flesh they have: sinful flesh cannot withstand the unveiled light of God’s radiant glory., whereas, sinless flesh thrives in it.


Here is the context of the light:


I’m not sure how she could have stated it more clearly, Tom. Paul’s companions saw the light, too. They didn’t understand the voice, but they clearly saw the light. The light was literal light, don’t you agree? It had a physical effect of Paul. It caused blindness, and perhaps lifetime damage (not all agree this was the cause of Paul's "thorn in the flesh").


Jesus created us in such a way that several things are necessary to live eternally: 1) the breath of life, 2) the tree of life, 3) the water of life, and 4) the light of life. It is this form of light that she is referring to in DA 108. It gives life to those who possess sinless flesh and it takes life from those who posses sinful flesh. It is a physical light that has a physical effect and physical things.

You wrote: "I would say people are not born again morally perfect." Thank you for answering my question. It is helpful to know what you believe when discussing the miracle of rebirth. I like how Sister White put it in the following passage:

AA 476
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17. Through the power of Christ, men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit. They have renounced selfishness. The profane have become reverent, the drunken sober, the profligate pure. Souls that have borne the likeness of Satan have become transformed into the image of God. This change is in itself the miracle of miracles. A change wrought by the Word, it is one of the deepest mysteries of the Word. We cannot understand it; we can only believe, as declared by the Scriptures, it is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." {AA 476.1}

When the Spirit of God controls mind and heart, the converted soul breaks forth into a new song; for he realizes that in his experience the promise of God has been fulfilled, that his transgression has been forgiven, his sin covered. He has exercised repentance toward God for the violation of the divine law, and faith toward Christ, who died for man's justification. "Being justified by faith," he has "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1. {AA 476.2}

But because this experience is his, the Christian is not therefore to fold his hands, content with that which has been accomplished for him. He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

Again, she wrote: "Through the power of Christ, men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit. They have renounced selfishness." You seem to qualify this insight by saying she obviously isn't referring to all sinful habits or to all selfishness. Do you have quotes where she qualifies it in this way?

She also wrote: "He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory." You seem to interpret this to mean they will discover new sinful habits after they are born again, or that they will gradually see their sinfulness and selfishness in a new and proper light.


Would you apply the same term to the sinful habits and traits of character the thief took to the grave with him? Or, will they change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him? Can we really refer to uncrucified sinful habits and traits of character as "morally immature?" Where is sin referred to in this way in the inspired writings?


Mercy will continue to be a reality throughout eternity, even after the extermination of our sins in the lake of fire. In Christ we are complete, morally perfect, lacking nothing - so far as our salvation status in concerned. Of course, we will continue to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. This maturation process will go on throughout eternity. Eternity isn't long enough for us to exhaust our potential to become more like Jesus. Oh blessed eternity!

You're serious? They change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him? How can this be a serious question?



You mean "character," not "sin." Here's an example:





You didn't say "In Christ" before. It seems to me we've had this conversation before, and I pointed out the same thing, and you agreed you should say "in Christ."

In the above quote, Sister White wrote - "Through the power of Christ, men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit. They have renounced selfishness."

You seem to qualify this insight by saying she obviously isn't referring to all sinful habits or to all selfishness. Do you have quotes where she qualifies it in this way?

She also wrote - "He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory."

You seem to interpret this to mean they will discover certain, hitherto unrevealed sinful habits after they are born again; or, you seem to say they will gradually see their unrevealed sinfulness and selfishness in a new and proper light as the Holy Spirit is able to get through to them. Where does she articulate this idea?