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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100259
06/26/08 05:48 PM
06/26/08 05:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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S: You are contending that whatever God asks or does is moral, but if I were to ask or do the same thing it would be immoral. Therefore you are saying that God does not hold Himself to the same standard as you and I. He, in a sense, is above the law. How could this be if the law is a transcript of His character? How could God tell me not to murder and then murder at will claiming that when He premeditates murder because of anger and jealousy it isn't murder, yet He defines murder in His law?

MM: Scott, there are plenty of things God can do that we cannot also do because we are not God. Recently I posted a quote from the SOP where she says it was okay for God to kill those who rebelled against Him but that it wouldn't have been okay for the Jewish leaders to have meted out the same punishment. But I cannot find that quote now. Nor can I recall the specific story she was commenting on.

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100260
06/26/08 06:14 PM
06/26/08 06:14 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
GC, if Abraham had killed Isaac, would that have been immoral? I mean actually killed him, not just the preparations to do so. I'm guessing you would say yes, because of God's actions to prevent it. But if God had not taken action to prevent it, then there would have been nothing immoral about it (Please correct me if I'm guessing wrong regarding your thoughts here).

Assuming these guesses are correct, there is nothing inherent in the act itself, such as killing, which is moral or immoral. All that matters is what God says to do. So if God commanded us to kill someone walking down the street (not threatening anyone), I'm talking about now, today, we would be dishonoring him if we didn't kill that person. Have I understood you correctly?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100261
06/26/08 06:59 PM
06/26/08 06:59 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
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 Quote:
But I cannot find that quote now. Nor can I recall the specific story she was commenting on.


You're probably thinking about the one about the flood.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100262
06/26/08 07:13 PM
06/26/08 07:13 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
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 Quote:
GC: When we do things FOR GOD'S HONOR, in obedience to His voice, we cannot go wrong, no matter what our fallible human reasoning may try to tell us.

TE: Sure we can go wrong. Catholics tortured and burned heretics for God's honor, and to save the souls of the one's they were torturing. They erred because they did not understand God's character nor His principles.

Did Moses misunderstand God's character when he obeyed His command to stone to death the Sabbath-breaker?


Why are you asking this? I mean, how does your question fit in the flow here?

You've asked this question to me before. How did I answer it?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100266
06/26/08 11:33 PM
06/26/08 11:33 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

You realize Jesus wasn't speaking literally here, don't you? Assuming you do, I'm not understanding why you would explain a statement of Jesus Christ's which is not literal to explain one from the law of Moses which is literal.

Of course Jesus was speaking literally. Almost everything that Jesus said has dual application: literal and spiritual/symbolic. I firmly believe it would be better to enter heaven physically blinded because I had cut out both of my sinful eyes, than to never get to heaven on account of them. Jesus is telling us here, in very straightforward manner, that the eternal is of greater importance than the temporal--even if it means our own bodies.

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

Also, I still don't know the answer to my question, which is why God would want a woman's hand to be cut off, or how you could think God would want such a thing.

God may not want such a thing, but God knows what is best. You will never convince me that God wanted to give the children of Israel the quail either. Yet He yielded to them, and gave it. Did God want to afflict the Egyptians with the 10 plagues? But Pharaoh had hardened his heart, and God sent the plagues. We have no right to second-guess God. He is infinitely wiser than we are. Let Him be God, and let our own hearts be humble.

I don't recall seeing any record of a woman's hand actually being cut off. Perhaps they all feared the law, and obeyed. In any case, one or two cases would have been sufficient examples to the rest. God gave this law for a reason. Do you truly feel it was a worthless law? Do you truly believe you know better than God what laws He should make?

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

Regarding what the Jews were ignorant of, one thing, particularly germane here, is regarding how women should be treated.

And perhaps how men should be treated too? Isn't that the purpose of the law we just discussed?

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
Is it safe to say things that undermine the laws of God?

Not the moral law. The law of Moses is no longer binding, so I don't see how I could undermine it.
 Quote:
Insisting that the Law of Moses contains certain ordinances and judgments that apply only to people who are in darkness and are ignorant of God’s “ideal” will for them is tricky business at best, right? Who am I to decide what applies to me and what does not?

The law of Moses is no longer binding. It was nailed to the cross. That should help you decide.

I sensed this coming. Most who disagree with the Law of Moses end up trying to claim it was abolished, and no longer applies. Unfortunately, this argument still does not work in your case, because you have conversely implied that at one time it was binding. So, if your case is true, during that time, was it a revelation of God's character to the people? Was it the truth?

Additionally, you have quoted Ellen White in making your case against polygamy, so I will now present a balancing statement from her pen which speaks of the "immutable" law. Immutable means unable to be changed--without exception. (I have bolded the relevant portion.)

 Originally Posted By: Ellen White

There are many who claim that by the death of Christ the law was abrogated; but in this they contradict Christ's own words, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. . . . Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law." Matt. 5:17, 18. It was to atone for man's transgression of the law that Christ laid down His life. Could the law have been changed or set aside, then Christ need not have died. By His life on earth He honored the law of God. By His death He established it. He gave His life as a sacrifice, not to destroy God's law, not to create a lower standard, but that justice might be maintained, that the law might be shown to be immutable, that it might stand fast forever. {COL 314.3}

Jesus said "Till heaven and earth pass...." Heaven and earth have not passed yet. That should help you decide. \:\)

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

Do you think if the law permitted it that stoning Sabbath-breakers would be a good idea? Do you think it would be a good idea to cut off women's hands?

Do you think you know better than God? Do you suppose you could have made better laws?

The law of God is as immutable as His character. It was an expression of His character. When we wish to become like Him in character, we begin by obeying His commands. "If ye love me, keep my commandments," Jesus said.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100267
06/26/08 11:39 PM
06/26/08 11:39 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
GC, if Abraham had killed Isaac, would that have been immoral? I mean actually killed him, not just the preparations to do so. I'm guessing you would say yes, because of God's actions to prevent it. But if God had not taken action to prevent it, then there would have been nothing immoral about it (Please correct me if I'm guessing wrong regarding your thoughts here).

Assuming these guesses are correct, there is nothing inherent in the act itself, such as killing, which is moral or immoral. All that matters is what God says to do. So if God commanded us to kill someone walking down the street (not threatening anyone), I'm talking about now, today, we would be dishonoring him if we didn't kill that person. Have I understood you correctly?

It would have been sin for Abraham not to follow God's command. God knew what He would do...and what Abraham would do. God knew that Abraham would not complete the act because God would prevent it. But in his heart, Abraham fulfilled the Divine commission. Had he rebelled, and refused the orders, it would have been sin. It would have been sin for Abraham to mistrust God, or doubt that God knew what was best. Too often today, we question God. We have come to feel in our society that this is "higher reasoning." But it is NOT faith. God used Abraham to teach us a lesson in faith. And Abraham fulfilled the command perfectly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100268
06/27/08 12:30 AM
06/27/08 12:30 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
You realize Jesus wasn't speaking literally here, don't you? Assuming you do, I'm not understanding why you would explain a statement of Jesus Christ's which is not literal to explain one from the law of Moses which is literal.

Of course Jesus was speaking literally.


No, He wasn't. It wouldn't make any sense for us to cut off our hand because our hand doesn't cause us to sin, our mind does.

 Quote:
Almost everything that Jesus said has dual application: literal and spiritual/symbolic. I firmly believe it would be better to enter heaven physically blinded because I had cut out both of my sinful eyes, than to never get to heaven on account of them.


You're eyes aren't sinful. Your mind is.

 Quote:
Jesus is telling us here, in very straightforward manner, that the eternal is of greater importance than the temporal--even if it means our own bodies.


Not exactly, but that's close. Here's how EGW put it:

 Quote:
If the foot or the hand would be cut off, or even the eye would be plucked out, to save the body from death, how much more earnest should we be to put away sin, that brings death to the soul!(DA 439)


I think she nailed this one. This is exactly how I see it.

 Quote:
God may not want such a thing, but God knows what is best.


??? It's best to cut women's hands off? How does this explanation help? What is it better than? I suppose than not cutting them off. Why would that be? Why is a woman without a hand better than with the hand?

 Quote:
You will never convince me that God wanted to give the children of Israel the quail either. Yet He yielded to them, and gave it.


I completely agree with this.

 Quote:
Did God want to afflict the Egyptians with the 10 plagues? But Pharaoh had hardened his heart, and God sent the plagues. We have no right to second-guess God. He is infinitely wiser than we are. Let Him be God, and let our own hearts be humble.


Second guess, no; understand yes.

 Quote:
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of his hands shall love him because he is worthy of love. He would have them obey him because they have an intelligent appreciation of his wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love him because they are drawn toward him in admiration of his attributes. (GC 541)


A slavish obedience seems to be precisely what you are envisioning. How is your view different than what a slavish obedience would be? A slave doesn't ask why, he just does. But God doesn't want us as slaves, but friends.

 Quote:
I don't recall seeing any record of a woman's hand actually being cut off. Perhaps they all feared the law, and obeyed. In any case, one or two cases would have been sufficient examples to the rest. God gave this law for a reason. Do you truly feel it was a worthless law? Do you truly believe you know better than God what laws He should make?


My point is that Jesus Christ reveals God's ideal will better than the law of Moses does. It's hard for me to believe anyone would believe that God's ideal will is that women's hands be cut off. Why would that be?

 Quote:
I sensed this coming. Most who disagree with the Law of Moses end up trying to claim it was abolished, and no longer applies. Unfortunately, this argument still does not work in your case, because you have conversely implied that at one time it was binding. So, if your case is true, during that time, was it a revelation of God's character to the people? Was it the truth?

Additionally, you have quoted Ellen White in making your case against polygamy, so I will now present a balancing statement from her pen which speaks of the "immutable" law. Immutable means unable to be changed--without exception. (I have bolded the relevant portion.)


(I liked the way you built up "immutable". Bold before the word, then the word itself is LARGE and then back to just bold. Nicely done.)

Your quote is not talking about the law of Moses, but about the 10 commandments. Ellen White understood that the law of Moses was nailed to the cross.

 Quote:
Opponents of the Seventh-day Sabbath commonly use lines in the book of Galatians to support their view that the law was done away with at the cross--phrases such as "curse of the law," "schoolmaster to bring us to Christ," "the yoke of bondage," etc. In trying to meet this argument early Sabbathkeepers explained that Paul was referring to the ceremonial law which was fulfilled at the time that Christ was nailed to the cross. (Woman of Vision 246)


 Quote:
Jesus said "Till heaven and earth pass...." Heaven and earth have not passed yet. That should help you decide.


This is speaking of the 10 commandments too. Not the law of Moses.

 Quote:
T:Do you think if the law permitted it that stoning Sabbath-breakers would be a good idea? Do you think it would be a good idea to cut off women's hands?

GC:Do you think you know better than God? Do you suppose you could have made better laws?


This is answering a question with a question, right? That doesn't really answer my question, does it?

 Quote:
The law of God is as immutable as His character. It was an expression of His character. When we wish to become like Him in character, we begin by obeying His commands. "If ye love me, keep my commandments," Jesus said.


The law of God, yes. The law of Moses, no. One is immutable. The other nailed to the cross. Two different laws are being referred to.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100269
06/27/08 12:47 AM
06/27/08 12:47 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

The law of God, yes. The law of Moses, no. One is immutable. The other nailed to the cross. Two different laws are being referred to.

The law of Moses was not God's? Did Moses actually make up his own laws? I'm confused.

Since the majority of the difference between our viewpoints currently deals with these laws, I will refrain from answering the details we were discussing, and try to settle the fundamentals first. If we work from different definitions, it would be fruitless to try to understand each other on the details anyway.

A few points:

1) Jesus was nailed to the cross.

2) After Jesus was nailed to the cross, He became more precious to us.

3) After Jesus was nailed to the cross, the promised salvation became an actual reality. It was ratified and validated.

4) After being nailed to the cross, Jesus was not thus "abolished." Jesus was not destroyed. He lives today.

Upon what grounds, then, can you say that, contrary to these points, the law being nailed to the cross with Christ was "abolished?" For this, I need scripture.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100275
06/27/08 03:22 AM
06/27/08 03:22 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Ok, since we're dealing with basic principles, let's go back a bit. Do you understand that there are two different laws involved, one of which was the 10 commandments which is immutable and eternal, the other one of which is not? If you don't believe the law of Moses was done away with, do you offer the sacrifices the law enjoins?

Col. 2:14 is the Scripture I (and EGW in the quote I cited) was speaking of. It speaks of a law being nailed to the cross.

In addition, there is much of Galatians and several chapters of Romans, and other writings of Paul, which explain why circumcision, which stood for the entire law of Moses, was no longer necessary. For example:

 Quote:
Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. (1 Cor 7:18-19)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100278
06/27/08 05:59 AM
06/27/08 05:59 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Tom, we are still not on the same page. The laws you have lumped together as "the Law of Moses" can be further subdivided. I divide these into these groups:

1) Ceremonial laws
2) Health laws
3) Civil laws

Or, to make it simpler, we could simply say:
1) Ceremonial laws
2) All other statutes

The only ones fulfilled by Christ's sacrifice, and therefore no longer needing to be followed, were the Ceremonial Laws.

While all of these laws may be popularly called "the Law of Moses," Ellen White makes clear from whence they came:

 Originally Posted By: Ellen White

The instruction which Moses gave to the children of Israel concerning the statutes and the precepts of God, did not originate with Moses, but with the God of heaven. We are told that Christ was in the pillar of the cloud by day, and in the fiery pillar at night. Men are enshrouded in darkness, and when they array Christ in the New Testament against Christ in the Old Testament, surely wisdom has departed from them. The Israelites of old were saved by Christ as verily as we are saved by Christ in this day.


Let us seek to be wise. \:\)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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