Very nice paraphrase Scott!

Amen Tom!

I think we give ourselves way too much credit. We don’t change the way God acts. He always acts from the principle of love. In other words He always does the loving thing and the loving thing is the right thing. We might hurt God’s feelings, but we don’t provoke Him to act out of that hurt and do something that He wouldn’t normally do.

It is God’s natural tendency to protect His children just like we do ours. To actually allow them to finally destroy themselves is a strange act for God exactly like it would be for us. We try to protect our children as much as we can while they are little. We shield them from strangers, put them in their car seats, feed them good food, but at some point they become adults and we set them free to choose their own path.

Will they still wear their seat belt? Will they still eat good food? Will they take up drinking or drugs or wild parties or even reject our religion and join the New Age? Maybe! But we don’t build a fence around a free man to protect him from himself. He is free!

I think that probation is really a time God said, “I won’t give you what you want because you don’t understand the consequences!” The end of probation is when we have exhausted God’s love and there is nothing more He can do to change our minds. He finally gives us what we demand and He lets us go to the consequences of our sins.

scott

The version Scott quoted reads thus - "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

Elsewhere Paul wrote:

Romans
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
9:22 [What] if God, willing to show [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Galatians
5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians
3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And John wrote:

Revelation
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Hi MM,

I have a question for you.

What could your God possible do that would cause you to doubt Him?

If your answer is "nothing" may I suggest that you are a prime candidate for cult membership!

scott

I meant the passage in the original Greek. Here's how Young's Literal Translation has it:



You can confirm that the original only has the word "wrath," not "God's wrath."

Regarding the other passages, those look to be dealing with God's wrath, except for maybe 1 Thes. 5:9; that might be saying the same thing as Paul says in Romans 5.

Rereading this seemed very harsh. I’m sorry for that. My intent was simply to note that if this earthly experience proves anything it proves that whom we are willing to follow makes us very dangerous people or very safe people. Adam and his wife had ample evidence that God was love, but chose to believe Satan’s version of God as someone they couldn’t trust, who didn’t have their best interest in mind, who was holding back good things from them. None of this was true, but had it been true then Satan would have been correct and righteous to point it out.

What I hear you saying in most of your posts that it doesn’t matter what God does because He is righteous and we need to blindly obey. I don’t find that in the story of creation. God allowed Adam a choice of what to believe and Adam could trust His limited experience with God as a lover and friend or he could believe Satan that God was neither.

How God acts, what He does, the principles that make up His character, His mind of a poet, His expressions of love, His humble nature, His meekness, are what make up His beautiful character. He is forever attractive and it is who He is that draws us to Him.

I see too many people pledging allegiance to God because He is the biggest and strongest and we better obey Him or else. This is sad and those who will stoop to this type of pressure are dangerous Christians. They will do anything their God tells them including breaking any and all of the God’s laws believing that God is above the law rather than the law is an expression of who He is.

God had to remove Israel from their position because they worshiped the wrong God. They worshiped a God of power and crucified the real God when He came to visit. They pointed to their laws that He gave them as evidence that He wasn’t God.

Wow!

I’ve decided that there is a standard I see in Jesus and only a God that perfectly fits into that standard is worthy of my praise. I refuse to give allegiance to a God that would act outside of the principles that Jesus taught. Satan has been cast out of this temple of my mind and there is only a place for Jesus and His Father that He spoke so highly of.

Now if I’m wrong then I’ll burn longing for a God like Jesus. I couldn’t live for eternity with any other God without eternity eventually becoming hell to me.

scott

What is "the wrath"?

Scott, I feel the same way about my God that you do about your God. You and Tom may find it difficult to believe I can love my God since He has punished and destroyed impenitent sinners, and will resurrect them at the end of time to punish and destroy them again. Nevertheless, my God is just and merciful, gracious and loving. The wrath of God is love. If we are tempted to think and feel otherwise it is because the enemy is seeking to deceive and ensnare us. If I showed you a quote that God was responsible for the destruction of sinners which would have been sinful for one us to do - would you agree with it?

Exodus
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Scott, I'm not sure if you are in agreement with Tom regarding how your God punishes and destroys sinners, so I'll just ask you. Do you believe that all the OT accounts of God punishing and destroying sinners can be explained by saying He withdrew His protection and allowed evil angels to punish and destroy them? (This is not to say Tom believes this way. I'm not exactly sure what he believes. I'm still trying to understand him).

[

I really believe this is exactly what the Great Controversy is all about. Some worship the image of the Beast and others worship God. Satan has used false doctrine and fundamentalist Bible exegesis to give His church a false picture of God. Satan has placed his character in the Christ’s living temple and the people are willing to worship a god that is exacting, demanding, petty, arbitrary, murders at will, and demands the blood of the innocent as appeasement.

Satan uses these men, willing to worship his image as God, to do the very things that they believe God has done in order to further God’s kingdom. By beholding we become changed. A violent God can only produce violent children. Satan well knows this!

If God has the same attributes as Hitler and we are willing to give our allegiance to Him then we are scary indeed! And if you think there are not Adventist willing to worship Satan’s image of God you might want to think again!

scott

I do not believe that God has ever murdered anyone and I don’t believe that He ever wanted any of His children to murder anyone for Him.

I believe that what we see in the Bible is reflective of man’s (even God’s chosen men) thirst for blood and violence. God came down to violent sinners and pitched His tent with us and was willing to risk His reputation to save us. God chose violent slaves to bring His Son to this earth and chose prostitutes, adulterers, and murderers for His family tree. Does this mean He condones their behavior or does it mean that He loves the worst of us and is willing to do what it takes to save us through the revelation of His Father’s gracefulness?

Because God values freedom above all He had to convince men’s minds that violence was the wrong path . . . always . . . and that love is the only way to win the battle between good and evil. Jesus demonstrated God’s love and forgiveness on the cross and that story of God’s love, that we call “the gospel”, is the power of God to salvation.

Make what you want of the OT, but the bottom line is that it is the good news that Jesus taught that is the fullness of truth. There is no other name (character) under heaven whereby we might be saved. Jesus is God and revealed the Father to us and was given all power and authority. Every knee will bow and every man will be made a liar when face to face with Christ’s righteousness.

Blessings in Christ,

scott