I don't consider Waggoner to have been fully correct in all of his ideas.

It is rather unfortunate, but when the church rejected a message God had inspired him to give, he later apostatized, and rejected the truth.

It is quite possible that Elder Jones or Waggoner may be overthrown by the temptations of the enemy; but if they should be, this would not prove that they had had no message from God, or that the work that they had done was all a mistake. But should this happen, how many would take this position, and enter into a fatal delusion because they are not under the control of the Spirit of God. They walk in the sparks of their own kindling, and cannot distinguish between the fire they have kindled and the light which God has given, and they walk in blindness as did the Jews. (1888 Mat. 1044)

I agree that Waggoner had much truth to share with the church at one point, but I don't know what point in time he may have written the statement you quote, nor whether this should represent the views of everyone, or of Mrs. White at that time.

In other words, I don't agree.

I believe there are four gospels for a reason. We would not get as complete a picture if there had been but one. Having four provides balance. I do not mean to say any one of them is wrong. But I do mean to say that not a one of them saw the full picture.

There is one book in the New Testament which puts balance to Paul. We can be very thankful for that little book! If it were not for James, I should be lost in confusion right now myself.

Faith makes a man a doer of the law, for that is the meaning of the term "justification by faith." So in James we read that the works of Abraham simply showed the perfection of his faith. "And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness." The apostle James, therefore, teaches the same kind of justification that Paul does. If he did not, one or the other or both of them would be discredited as apostles. Justification by faith which works is the only kind of justification known in the Bible.

As I explained in the previous post, I disagree with the idea that Paul was not balanced. However, people do twist Paul to say all kinds of weird things, and I've made the same challenge to others, so I accept!

From Jeremiah:



Jeremiah spoke of a "new" covenant in which the law would be written in the heart. The existence of a "new" covenant presupposes the existence of an old. What was the "new" covenant? It was simply the covenant made with Abraham, a covenant which included everything needed, including:

a)an inheritance of land, even the earth made new
b)righteousness
c)the resurrection
d)eternal life
e)Christ Himself

That Christ Himself was promised is evident from Abraham's being told "I am thy exceeding great reward." (Gen. 15:1)

That the land promised to Abraham was not the earthly Canaan is evident by Stephen:



This makes clear what it wasn't. Peter makes clear what it was:



This makes clear that the promised land is the new earth, and that it is a land of righteousness.

So it is clear that the promise (or covenant) made to Abraham included everything that Abraham, or any other man, could want or need. Why then was a different covenant made with Israel at Sinai?



When the Lord offered them the same promises that He made to Abraham, they misunderstood God as wanting to do something in order to make themselves righteous, as opposed to receiving the righteousness of God as a free gift to be received by faith in Christ as did Abraham. They had a heart problem, which Deut 5, and Jeremiah spells out. Of course Jesus Christ spent a great deal of His ministry dealing with this heart problem.

To summarize:

a)God originally presented to the Israelites the same covenant He made with Abraham.
b)That covenant would have been sufficient for all their needs, being based on justification by faith and having the law written in the heart.
c)They rejected that covenant.
d)God entered into a different covenant with Israel, based on different principles, which had the law written on tablets of stone as opposed to being written on the heart.

And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. (Exodus 34:28, KJV)

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. (Deuteronomy 4:13, KJV)

These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. (Deuteronomy 29:1, KJV)

That the covenant and promise of God are one and the same thing, is clearly seen from Gal.3:17, where it appears that to disannul the covenant would be to make void the promise. In Genesis 17 we read that God made a covenant with Abraham to give him the land of Canaan--and with it the whole world--for an everlasting possession; but Gal.3:18 says that God gave it to him by promise. God's covenants with men can be nothing else than promises to them: "Who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things." Rom.11:35,36. It is so rare for men to do anything without expecting an equivalent, that theologians have taken it for granted that it is the same with God. So they begin their dissertations on God's covenant with the statement that a covenant is "a mutual agreement between two or more persons, to do or refrain from doing certain things." But God does not make bargains with men, because He knows that they could not fulfil their part. After the flood God made a covenant with every beast of the earth, and with every fowl; but the beasts and the birds did not promise anything in return. Gen.9:9-16. They simply received the favor at the hand of God. That is all we can do. God promises us everything that we need, and more than we can ask or think, as a gift. We give Him ourselves, that is, nothing, and He gives us Himself, that is, everything. That which makes all the trouble is that even when men are willing to recognize the Lord at all, they want to make bargains with Him. They want it to be a "mutual" affair--a transaction in which they will be considered as on a par with God. But whoever deals with God must deal with Him on His own terms, that is, on a basis of fact--that we have nothing and are nothing, and He has everything and is everything, and gives everything. (The Glad Tidings)

At this point, I differ. God did not enter into a different covenant with Israel, based on "different principles, which had the law written on tablets of stone." I see that you are trying to make the point that writing on the heart is better than on stone. That's the only part of this I'll agree with. The principles themselves are not different. They are the same.

Greetings to all,

Not having yet taken the time to read this thread from the beginning, but having just been invited to participate here, let me begin by stating my "big picture" of the covenants.

1) The covenants began from the beginning, but the first clear mention is the word given to Noah.
2) The covenant was later renewed to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob (Israel).
3) Each time the covenant is reiterated, it is developed further, with some fresh addition to God's promise.
4) The covenant is renewed with the descendants of Jacob following the Exodus.
5) The covenant continues to be mentioned through the Old Testament and on into the New.
6) The words "oath", "promise", "word", "commandments", and "testimonies" are used in conjunction with God's covenant. In modern language, perhaps the best equivalent would be "Treaty." It represents a mutual promise.
7) God has always kept His side of the treaty.
8) We have failed on our side of it, and broken the covenant with God.
9) The covenant that God made in the beginning is the same covenant today. It can be summed up simply to say: Keep God's commandments, and God will bless you.
10) The covenant was made with everyone on earth, not just a select group.
11) The only difference that the "New Testament" makes with the covenant, is that it seeks an even greater fulfillment in our lives; moving from a mere "head knowledge" to a "heart knowledge," or more specifically, from belief to action.
12) We are to be a covenant-keeping people.

I would be happy to provide scriptural support to any of these points, but for the sake of brevity, I have omitted them this time until someone so requests.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC: 1) The covenants began from the beginning, but the first clear mention is the word given to Noah. 2) The covenant was later renewed to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob (Israel).

Genesis 9: 8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying: 9 “And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your descendants[b] after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth. 11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
12 And God said: “This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth. 14 It shall be, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud; 15 and I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 The rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will look on it to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.” 17 And God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.”

MM: You wrote, "They were to be God’s evangelists. They misunderstood this and believed that God wanted them to keep the law to earn salvation. So the covenant that God offered wasn’t the one they agreed to. The problem was in their mind!" What do you mean?

S: Its not that God deceived the COI, but they deceived themselves believing what they wanted to believe! God wanted to make them servants to the world to introduce the lost to salvation, but they wanted God to use His power to make them kings and rulers over people.

Did you have something specific in mind? I went back an looked, and so you presented, with no comment, an inspired quote, so of course I don't disagree with that. And I see this statement that I just commented that I agree with. And I see you asked a question. That's it. So I didn't see anything in a quick glance that I would disagree with. However, I didn't go back and read every post in this thread.

Now there's another thread on the Covenants going on, and I've commented on that thread things I disagree with regarding your view of things.

My view is close to Rosangela's. We agree on the following points:

a)God originally presented to the Israelites the same covenant He made with Abraham.
b)That covenant would have been sufficient for all their needs, being based on justification by faith and having the law written in the heart.
c)They rejected that covenant.
d)God entered into a different covenant with Israel, based on different principles, which had the law written on tablets of stone as opposed to being written on the heart.

IIRC, you disagree with these ideas. For example, as I recall, you believe the Old Covenant is still in force, and you see nothing wrong with it.

And the Lord declared to him, "I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee." Genesis 17:7. {PP 370.3}

Though this covenant was made with Adam and renewed to Abraham, it could not be ratified until the death of Christ. It had existed by the promise of God since the first intimation of redemption had been given; it had been accepted by faith; yet when ratified by Christ, it is called a new covenant. The law of God was the basis of this covenant, which was simply an arrangement for bringing men again into harmony with the divine will, placing them where they could obey God's law. {PP 370.4}

Another compact--called in Scripture the "old" covenant--was formed between God and Israel at Sinai, and was then ratified by the blood of a sacrifice. The Abrahamic covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ, and it is called the "second," or "new," covenant, because the blood by which it was sealed was shed after the blood of the first covenant. That the new covenant was valid in the days of Abraham is evident from the fact that it was then confirmed both by the promise and by the oath of God--the "two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie." Hebrews 6:18. {PP 371.1}

But if the Abrahamic covenant contained the promise of redemption, why was another covenant formed at Sinai? In their bondage the people had to a great extent lost the knowledge of God and of the principles of the Abrahamic covenant. In delivering them from Egypt, God sought to reveal to them His power and His mercy, that they might be led to love and trust Him. He brought them down to the Red Sea--where, pursued by the Egyptians, escape seemed impossible--that they might realize their utter helplessness, their need of divine aid; and then He wrought deliverance for them. Thus they were filled with love and gratitude to God and with confidence in His power to help them. He had bound them to Himself as their deliverer from temporal bondage. {PP 371.2}

But there was a still greater truth to be impressed upon their minds. Living in the midst of idolatry and corruption, they had no true conception of the holiness of God, of the exceeding sinfulness of their own hearts, their utter inability, in themselves, to render obedience to God's law, and their need of a Saviour. All this they must be taught. {PP 371.3}

God brought them to Sinai; He manifested His glory; He gave them His law, with the promise of great blessings on condition of obedience: "If ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then . . . ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." Exodus 19:5, 6. The people did not realize the sinfulness of their own hearts, and that without Christ it was impossible for them to keep God's law; and they readily entered into covenant with God. Feeling that they were able to establish their own righteousness, they declared, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." Exodus 24:7. They had witnessed the proclamation of the law in awful majesty, and had trembled with terror before the mount; and yet only a few weeks passed before they broke their covenant with God, and bowed down to worship a graven image. They could not hope for the favor of God through a covenant which they had broken; and now, seeing their sinfulness and their need of pardon, they were brought to feel their need of the Saviour revealed in the Abrahamic covenant and shadowed forth in the sacrificial offerings. Now by faith and love they were bound to God as their deliverer from the bondage of sin. Now they were prepared to appreciate the blessings of the new covenant. {PP 371.4}

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. "This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:33, 34. {PP 372.1}

The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Then the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit will bring forth "the fruits of the Spirit." Through the grace of Christ we shall live in obedience to the law of God written upon our hearts. Having the Spirit of Christ, we shall walk even as He walked. Through the prophet He declared of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And when among men He said, "The Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him." John 8:29. {PP 372.2}

The apostle Paul clearly presents the relation between faith and the law under the new covenant. He says: "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh"--it could not justify man, because in his sinful nature he could not keep the law--"God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 5:1, 3:31, 8:3, 4. {PP 373.1}

By GC: 6) The words "oath", "promise", "word", "commandments", and "testimonies" are used in conjunction with God's covenant. In modern language, perhaps the best equivalent would be "Treaty." It represents a mutual promise.

From Greek Interlinear Study Bible: a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will.

By MM: I haven't read where God first attempted to offer the post-exilic Jews the new or everlasting covenant before compromising and offering them the old covenant. Here's what I have read about it. In this passage she applies Exodus 19:5, 6 to the old covenant.