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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Mountain Man] #100680
07/07/08 04:38 PM
07/07/08 04:38 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
In the following passage "the statement of facts" were expressed "in such a manner as to mislead", right? Rather than just going 3 days outside of Egypt, wasn't it Jesus' intention to bring the COI all the way to Canaan?

It seems that
1) God told Moses and Aaron to make a modest request in order to make even more evident pharaoh’s hardness of heart
2) Many of the children of Israel themselves didn’t want to leave Egypt, so they had to first get accustomed to the idea.

“The Hebrews expected to be delivered from their bondage without any particular trial of their faith, or suffering on their part. They were many of them ready to leave Egypt, but not all. The habits of some had become so much like the Egyptians that they preferred to remain with them. ‘And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness. And Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go. And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the Lord our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.’ The request of Moses and Aaron was very modest. They asked to go only three days' journey. But Pharaoh haughtily refused this, and professed to be entirely ignorant of the God of Israel. But the Lord purposed to let Pharaoh know that his voice is to be obeyed; that he is above all, and will compel proud rulers to bow to his authority.” {1SP 177.1}

Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Rosangela] #100766
07/10/08 12:58 PM
07/10/08 12:58 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,133
Nova Scotia, Canada
How does the following text fit into this discussion?
 Quote:

(1Ki 22:22 MKJV) And Jehovah said to him, With what? And he said, I will go forth and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him and succeed also. Go forth and do so.

(1Ki 22:23 MKJV) And now, behold, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets, and Jehovah has spoken evil concerning you.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Daryl] #100767
07/10/08 01:26 PM
07/10/08 01:26 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I think that first, this is a parable, and, second, in it God is represented as doing that which He permits. God knew that they would be deceived by Satan, warned them of that through this parable, and even so they chose to be deceived.

Ellen White makes a parallel of this incident:

"Let all who read these lines, take heed. Satan has made his boast of what he can do. He thinks to dissolve the unity which Christ prayed might exist in His Church. He says, 'I will go forth and be a lying spirit to deceive those that I can, to criticize, and condemn, and falsify.' Let the sin of deceit and false witness be entertained by a church that has had great light, great evidence, and that church will discard the message the Lord has sent, and receive the most unreasonable assertions and false suppositions and false theories. Satan laughs at their folly, for he knows what truth is." {1888 1646.5}

Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Rosangela] #100797
07/10/08 08:20 PM
07/10/08 08:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Well done, Rosangela. Thank you.

Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Mountain Man] #100810
07/11/08 12:24 AM
07/11/08 12:24 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
in it God is represented as doing that which He permits.


I think this is the key to understand virtually all the evil things attributed to God. (I say "virtually all" but "all" may be better.)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Tom] #100975
07/18/08 08:22 PM
07/18/08 08:22 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
in it God is represented as doing that which He permits.


I think this is the key to understand virtually all the evil things attributed to God. (I say "virtually all" but "all" may be better.)

There's just one caveat to this: Your definition of "evil."

Satan tries to make God's law appear evil. He tries to make God's justice appear evil. But they are not evil.

Appearances can make a world of difference.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100988
07/19/08 02:53 AM
07/19/08 02:53 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
There's just one caveat to this: Your definition of "evil."


I don't know what you mean by this, since you made no comment as to what you think my definition of evil is. Maybe you're using the word "your" in a generic sense, as opposed to me personally.

At any rate, I will offer five definitions for "evil."

1.That which is contrary to the moral law.
2.That which is different than what Jesus Christ revealed while dwelling amongst us in the flesh.
3.That which is contrary to the principles of agape.
4.That which results in bad things.
5.That which proceeds from selfishness.

4 requires some comment, since it uses the word "bad," which can be seen as a synonym for "evil." I'm using the phrase "bad results" to mean thing which tend to death, unpleasantness, strife, misery, suffering, and such like.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Tom] #100993
07/19/08 04:25 AM
07/19/08 04:25 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
There's just one caveat to this: Your definition of "evil."


I don't know what you mean by this, since you made no comment as to what you think my definition of evil is. Maybe you're using the word "your" in a generic sense, as opposed to me personally.

At any rate, I will offer five definitions for "evil."

1.That which is contrary to the moral law.
2.That which is different than what Jesus Christ revealed while dwelling amongst us in the flesh.
3.That which is contrary to the principles of agape.
4.That which results in bad things.
5.That which proceeds from selfishness.

4 requires some comment, since it uses the word "bad," which can be seen as a synonym for "evil." I'm using the phrase "bad results" to mean thing which tend to death, unpleasantness, strife, misery, suffering, and such like.

Ah...so, which one of the following, by your definition Tom, is "evil":

1) The death of sinners?
2) Immortal sinners?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Green Cochoa] #101011
07/20/08 12:45 AM
07/20/08 12:45 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I don't understand your question, GC. What are you wanting to know, and why are you asking this particular question?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Tom] #101094
07/22/08 04:04 PM
07/22/08 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, would say God did something "evil" if He, for example, caused a flood that killed everyone and everything on the planet save 8 souls and certain fish?

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