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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Tom]
#100580
07/05/08 02:15 PM
07/05/08 02:15 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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"Thank you for stating the obvious" is not sarcastic? You are genuinely thankful that I stated something obvious? You want me to believe this?
MM, I understand English. This is a 100% sarcastic phrase. No native English speaker would state this phrase for any other reason than sarcasm. Tom, I am not lying. Please believe me.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Tom]
#100581
07/05/08 02:20 PM
07/05/08 02:20 PM
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How is it an example of God giving them up to destruction? What did He do, or not do, that resulted in snakes suddenly biting people and then suddenly stop biting them? God withdrew His protection. Please post an inspired quote to supports this specific assertion. That is, a quote stating God withdrew His protection and the snakes naturally bit the Jews. Thank you. I seem to recall you citing Jesus predicting the destruction of Jerusalem as an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection while here in the flesh. If this is your example, then I don't see how it fits. I asked you for an example of Jesus doing it while here in the flesh, not 40 years after He returned to heaven. Jesus said: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! This was during his lifetime, not 40 years after. Did Jews die when Jesus spoke these words because He withdrew His protection? If not, why are you citing this incident as an example of it?
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100582
07/05/08 02:25 PM
07/05/08 02:25 PM
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TE: Regarding your question on polygamy, my answer is that polygamy is contrary to God's will, was never sanctioned by Him in a single instance, and is a violation of His law.
MM: Yes, I know you believe this, but my question doesn't have anything to do with this. I am specifically interested in learning what you believe about the law of Moses which makes provisions for a man to have more than one wife. Is he guilty of sinning if he acts in harmony with the law of Moses and takes more than one wife?
TE: Here's an EGW statement: Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." (Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b)
Using this definition for sin, I would say no, not guilty of sinning. Not even ignorantly? That is, was he sinning ignorantly?
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100583
07/05/08 02:32 PM
07/05/08 02:32 PM
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Tom, did you overlook posts #100545 and #100549 on this thread?
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100584
07/05/08 02:45 PM
07/05/08 02:45 PM
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We don’t look at the OT as a revelation of God.
CT 462
The Old Testament sheds light upon the New, and the New upon the Old. Each is a revelation of the glory of God in Christ. Christ as manifested to the patriarchs, as symbolized in the sacrificial service, as portrayed in the law, and as revealed by the prophets is the riches of the Old Testament. Christ in His life, His death, and His resurrection; Christ as He is manifested by the Holy Spirit, is the treasure of the New. Both Old and New present truths that will continually reveal new depths of meaning to the earnest seeker. {CT 462.3}
Notice how each testament is a revelation of the glory of God in Christ. Everything in the Old pointed to Christ!
SC 88
Jesus said of the Old Testament Scriptures,--and how much more is it true of the New,--"They are they which testify of Me," the Redeemer, Him in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered. John 5:39. Yes, the whole Bible tells of Christ. From the first record of creation--for "without Him was not anything made that was made"--to the closing promise, "Behold, I come quickly," we are reading of His works and listening to His voice. John 1:3; Revelation 22:12. If you would become acquainted with the Saviour, study the Holy Scriptures. {SC 88.1}
This is exactly my point! You are the one trying to prove that the OT reveals the character of God, but you give me quotes stating exactly my point: The OT reveals Christ and Christ reveals God’s character! The OT reveals God’s character by confirming Christ. The OT is the objective evidence that Jesus is truly God and truly the one God sent. Scott, thank you for clarifying what you believe about the OT as it relates to being a revelation of God's character. But it still sounds like you are saying the OT does *not* reveal the character of God. You adamantly wrote, "You are the one trying to prove that the OT reveals the character of God, but you give me quotes stating exactly my point: The OT reveals Christ and Christ reveals God’s character!" Please understand, Scott, that all I am trying to do is understand what you believe. I am not going to attack you or call you a heretic or blasphemer once I know what you believe. So, please, feel free to be open and honest and straightforward. Which, by the way, you have been, and I appreciate it very much. Paul wrote that the God of the Jews during their wilderness sojourn was none other than Jesus Christ, the Son of God. "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Cor 10:4. So, wouldn't it be safe to conclude it was Jesus who was interacting with the Jews in the wilderness? If so, wouldn't it also make sense to conclude Jesus was revealing the character of God in how He interacted with the Jews in the OT?
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100585
07/05/08 02:50 PM
07/05/08 02:50 PM
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Scott, if you go back through the last several posts on this thread you'll find that I addressed quite a few of them to you in response to your earlier posts. I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Tom]
#100598
07/06/08 12:09 AM
07/06/08 12:09 AM
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I seem to recall you citing Jesus predicting the destruction of Jerusalem as an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection while here in the flesh. If this is your example, then I don't see how it fits. I asked you for an example of Jesus doing it while here in the flesh, not 40 years after He returned to heaven. Jesus said: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! This was during his lifetime, not 40 years after. Six hundred plus years before the event, Ezekiel predicted the destruction of the temple 40 years after Christ's death. Jesus was but reiterating that which the scholars should already have known (but probably weren't paying attention). Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100616
07/06/08 03:56 AM
07/06/08 03:56 AM
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OP
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Lawrence, Kansas
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"Thank you for stating the obvious" is not sarcastic? You are genuinely thankful that I stated something obvious? You want me to believe this?
MM, I understand English. This is a 100% sarcastic phrase. No native English speaker would state this phrase for any other reason than sarcasm.
Tom, I am not lying. Please believe me. You want me to believe that when you wrote, "Thank you for stating the obvious" that this wasn't sarcasm? Do you have any bridges to sell as well?  I'm asking the (second) question tongue-in-cheek, MM, but, seriously, you should be able to reconize that what you wrote is sarcasm.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Tom]
#100617
07/06/08 04:08 AM
07/06/08 04:08 AM
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Please post an inspired quote to supports this specific assertion. That is, a quote stating God withdrew His protection and the snakes naturally bit the Jews. Thank you. I'm computer hampered for the time being. You should be able to find this easier than I could, as you no doubt have a faster computer than I do. Try doing a search on "fiery serpents" on an EGW site. If you can't find it easily, please let me know. Did Jews die when Jesus spoke these words because He withdrew His protection? If by "Jesus" you mean "God," then yes, they did. If not, why are you citing this incident as an example of it? Do you recall the incident of the cursed tree? That was an object lesson of the same thing. I think you're kind of missing the forest through the trees. There's a general principle involved, which you're trying to make too specific. The general principle is that we need God's protection. Without it, all sorts of bad things can happen. According to the SOP, there are a thousand different things that can happen. One shouldn't need to shall all thousand to illustrate the principle. That Jesus taught that we need God's protection should be evident. When Jesus gave permission for the evil spirits to enter the pigs, what happened? That's a good example of the principle. Jesus wanted to teach a lesson by resurrecting Lazarus. Jesus had to leave so that Lazarus would die. Why? The answer to this question is another example of the principle. The Great Controversy is a war between two parties. One causes destruction in many ways, and blames to the other for what he does. The other party *only does good*. Always. One is "the destroyer." The other is "the restorer."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100618
07/06/08 04:20 AM
07/06/08 04:20 AM
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OP
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Which voice are you referring to? Please explain what you mean. Thank you. The one you mentioned in your post. Does the law of Moses address men grabbing men's secret places? If not specifically addressed, then wouldn't it be implied? Are you asking if it is implied that men's hands should be cut off? No, that's not implied. Men and women were treated very differently. Many credit Jesus Christ with raising the standard of treatment for women. Some cultures still treat women poorly, according to similar customs that the Hebrews had. God was working to enlighten them, but He had to work with their ignorance and could only reveal so much at a time. Jesus Christ was no hindered by ignorance or hardness of heart, so His revelation of God was perfect. He was a "greater than Moses." MM: Again, polygamy and capital punishment do not violate the law of God when administered in harmony with the law of Moses. I don't know about lying and stealing. Ananias and Sapphira didn't make out so well when they lied and stole.
TE: According to the statement I've cited a number of times now, polygamy is a sin, contrary to the law of God, never sanctioned in a single instance. Aren't you suggesting that the law of Moses sanctioned it?
I'm not suggesting it, Tom. I'm clearly saying polygamy is part of the law of Moses. My question to you is - Was it a sin for a man to have more than one wife at a time if he acted in harmony with the law of Moses? The law of Moses does not define sin. Sin is defined by the moral law, the 10 commandments. This is what EGW was referring to when she wrote that it was a "violation of the law of God." Polygamy is a violation of the seventh commandment, which protects marriage. You have agreed that polygamy is a sin, or did before. I started this thread because you argued that it was not a sin breaking the last six commandments, but only breaking the first four, which I thought was quite an odd theory. Still do. You have made it plain you believe God permitted it, but you have not plainly answered whether or not it was a sin in the eyes of God. What do you think?
I think the quote I've provided a whole host of times by Ellen White should be clear enough. It was a "violation of the law of God," "contrary to His will," and "not sanctioned by God in a single instance." I don't understand what's not clear about this. I don't understand why you keep asking about this again and again. What is unclear here?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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