I agree with this. I believe what causes this is the revelation of God's goodness.

The best explanation I've seen of this is by Ty Gibson in his book "See With New Eyes." I won't be able to do the idea justice, but, roughly speaking, as we see God as He is, we see ourselves as we are, which we can't bear, except in small doses. God seeks to reveal Himself to us in this lifetime, while there's still time for us to be healed from the effects of sin, which makes the revelation of Himself difficult for us.

It's not God's judgment of sin which causes this, nor his displeasure of it, but His goodness, His love (which is why DA 764 says "the glory of Him who is love" destroys the sinner). Sin destroys our ability to perceive God's goodness in a way that doesn't hurt us.

In order to be saved, we must be healed from sin, and learn to see God as He really is, so when we actually meet Him, we won't be freaked out ("freaked out" being the technical theological term for this).

Wait a minute. I’m confused. Just because a person has free will and conscience, this does not mean that he/she is a loving and loveable person. Satan has free will and conscience. And what exactly does this have to do with evil bringing bad results?


You are taking an isolated passage and interpreting it apart from what the Bible and Ellen White say in other passages. Why is it that when the error is brought to the attention of the person, the person must repent (Acts 17:30, Lev. 4:27, 28, etc)? Besides, if these errors are not sins, why are they called sins of ignorance?


They are blotted out.


How can you say He didn't talk about this? In His parables, many, many times Jesus portrayed God as a king/master - in fact, much more frequently than as a father. He also mentioned God as a judge.

It's the other way around. Sentient beings which love and can be loved have a free will and a conscience.



The bad results that evil causes to sentient beings that can love and be loved involves the conscience. My point has been that the fact that evil causes bad results is not arbitrary (i.e., not because of something God decreed should be the case) but is a necessary consequence of being created with the ability to love and be loved. To love and be loved, one must have free will and a conscience. Using one's free will to do evil has bad results, in part due to having a conscience.



The passage is dealing precisely with the question at hand. Ellen White, and colleagues of hers, had been, in ignorance, keeping the Sabbath incorrectly (from 6:00 PM to 6:00 PM instead of from sunset to sunset). She was worried about that. The angel explained to her that when light came, then there was the "frown of God," but that where there is no light "there is no sin."



Because once a person knows one has done wrong, the relationship is damaged. As long as one is in ignorance of having done something wrong, one's relationship with God is not damaged, and there is no need for healing.



Perhaps a lack of precision.



Ok, you're talking about the investigative judgment. This is an interesting subject of itself. I would say that to say that sin is blotted out is to say it is removed from our character, and that fact is reflected by the books of heaven. Here's a thought from Waggoner on this:





He never referred to God Himself as a judge. (I don't believe He did; if you know of a reference, please present it). Jesus told many parables based on the mindset of His hearers. These parables should not necessarily be understood as reflecting Jesus' own beliefs. For example, Jesus taught the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man which has immortality of the soul in it because His hearers believed in this erroneous doctrine. Another example is in the parable of the talents that were given to the workers to invest where one of the workers was chastised, being told "you knew your master was severe and harsh, yet you invested foolishly ..." Of course, God is neither severe nor harsh, but that's the way the worker thought of Him, so the parable addressed him in his own terms.

Much of Scripture is like this, by the way. The Spirit of Prophecy too. God makes appeals to us based on our level of understanding. For example, from "The Desire of Ages"



Even though Ellen White wrote this, one can find in her writings appeals based on fear of punishment and hope of reward. Why? Because that's the only motivation some people know, so God makes accommodations to meet them where they are.

Hi Rosangela,

My original question was "how long" do you think they would survive and you still didn't answer it.



So if God revealed the cross to every man (after the 2nd resurrection) in its fullness and showed them every time that He had pled with them and how many times they had been saved by His mercy during their life and then He withdrew His presence how long would it be before they destroyed themselves living with the guilt of their sins and the absence of hope?

Or do you think if God didn't destroy them the race would continue on for a long time?

scott

I’m still confused. I said that too, and my point was that God used His individual discretion to create our mind/conscience to work in the way it works. How exactly does your position differ from mine?


Sin is the transgression of the law. If you transgress it ignorantly is this a sin or not? In a way it is, because you are transgressing it. In a way it isn’t, because that sin is not imputed to you until you have light about the subject. But obviously God knows it is a sin, although you are not aware of that, and will try to bring that to your attention.


No relationship is damaged. You didn’t know it was a sin! But since now you know, of course you repent for having done something wrong, something against the will of God. This is simple.


So I suppose you believe the Bible is imprecise in this particular case.


When the hour of the judgment comes, the sin registry of the righteous is blotted out. The sins of Abel were removed from his character some 6,000 years ago, but only now have they been removed from the books of heaven.


Some parables speak about God by similarity and others by contrast. The severe master, the unjust judge, are contrasted with God, who is a loving Master and a just Judge. But, if in a given parable God is likened to a father, king or judge, either by similarity or by contrast, this means God has all those roles.

Not a very long time it seems, but certainly not immediately. As far as I know the Holy Spirit will be entirely removed from the wicked after probation closes, but we have no idea about how much time will elapse until Christ comes. Even so, the wicked won't destroy themselves but it will be Christ's glory which will destroy them/ the earth.


Do you believe God will withdraw His presence? I don't believe that and, as far as I know, Tom doesn't believe that either, so I think you differ with him in this point.

No! Actually I believe that God will show up and the very light that resurrected the righteous, 1000 years earlier, will drive humanity insane enough to believe that they can take the city by force.

My question was trying to see if you thought sin was truly lethal or just an alternate life style.

scott

I believe the Holy Spirit is withdrawn in the sense that He gives up. The wicked won't respond, so rather than continue to speak to them, which would have no purpose, He sadly lets them go.

I wouldn't say we have "no idea." We don't have a precise idea, but we know it won't be a long time.

(I didn't forget your other post; just have a short amount of time right now).

Something to think about regarding the consequences of God withdrawing His presence:

The fact that God's presence is required for the continued working of something so fundamental as gravity also impacts every discussion that deals with the results of God's presence (e.g. consumes sin and sinners, gives life to His subjects, etc.).

Exactly, Arnold!