MM: Tom, you wrote, "I know that's your inclination, which is why I pointed out another possibility for you." I cited two possibilities of the origin or source of "the wrath" Paul mentioned in Rom 5:9 - 1) Our wrath, and 2) God's wrath. You seem to believe it refers to our wrath, which prevents God from benefiting us with the reconciliation and salvation He provided us. Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea described or explained? That is, where does it talk about man's wrath being the thing that prevents God from saving us through Jesus? "... we shall be saved through him from the wrath." Again, where does it describe "the wrath" in these terms?

TE: In Romans 5:9.

Regarding the texts you cited, there are too many discuss all of them, but I'll discuss the first one about the quail.


The "very great plague" with which "the Lord smote the people" was due to the people feasting without restraint. Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits. This is simply another example of this.

As Scott, I think, pointed out, even to this day most Jews do not believe in a literal devil. Everything that happens is attributed to God. Jesus Christ showed the limitations of this view. He demonstrated that in reality, only good things come from God. All the evil that happens is due to that which God permits; He causes none of it.

The following describes this principle well:



This principle isn't limited to plants. It applies to all the bad things there are in the world.

S: What if God was to withdraw the presence of the Holy Spirit from the earth completely and did nothing to punish men. How long would it take for men to totally become insane and destroy the earth and themselves along with it?

MM: Does this hypothetical scenario include access to the tree of life? If so, then here is what Jesus said about it:

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Here's what Jesus inspired Sister White to write about it:

Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct. It was Satan's plan that Adam and Eve should by disobedience incur God's displeasure; and then, if they failed to obtain forgiveness, he hoped that they would eat of the tree of life, and thus perpetuate an existence of sin and misery. But after man's fall, holy angels were immediately commissioned to guard the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light having the appearance of a glittering sword. None of the family of Adam were permitted to pass the barrier to partake of the life-giving fruit; hence there is not an immortal sinner. {PP 60.3}

I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree and were driven from the garden, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, lest they should partake of its fruit and be immortal sinners. The tree of life was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed the flaming sword and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of Adam's family has passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner. The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}

TE: MM, regarding the tree of life, Revelation tells us:

"He showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

Therefore eating of the tree of life once is not enough. It is continually eating of it that is necessary. God did not want Adam and Eve's suffering to continue, so He, in mercy, took steps to cut short their suffering, and provided a way that could live forever without sin.

Hi MM,

Actually I'm not talking about individual men living forever. I'm talking about the human race continuing on with people dying and being born.

No tree of life, just the way it is now. My question is very simple. If God withdraws His presence form the earth completely and takes all those who have chosen to love him off the earth then how long do you suppose earthlings would take to destroy themselves. Or do you think they would continue to have babies and die generation after generation?

This question seems to be very hard to answer! Am I not communicating very well?

By MM: Given the scenario as you have laid it out - Yes, they would destroy one another. But, do you agree that they would live forever if they had regular access to the tree of life?

Tom, you seem to be agreeing with the quotes I posted, that sinners would live forever if allowed to continually eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Or, did I misunderstand you?

Hi MM,

Yes and no. I believe they could live forever with the tree in their midst, but I don’t believe that there is enough sanity in a world without the influence of the Holy Spirit to survive. Sin seems to destroy everything in its path and insane evil men would eventually destroy the earth. For sure the strongest would take possession of the tree and build a fence around it and hoard it to themselves. Mankind would probably destroy themselves trying to control the tree.

God is life in every way.

[Satan's] followers were seeking him, and he aroused himself and, assuming a look of defiance, informed them of his plans to wrest from God the noble Adam and his companion Eve. If he could in any way beguile them to disobedience, God would make some provision whereby they might be pardoned, and then himself and all the fallen angels would be in a fair way to share with them of God's mercy. If this should fail, they could unite with Adam and Eve, for when once they should transgress the law of God they would be subjects of God's wrath, like themselves. Their transgression would place them, also, in a state of rebellion, and they could unite with Adam and Eve, take possession of Eden, and hold it as their home. And if they could gain access to the tree of life in the midst of the garden, their strength would, they thought, be equal to that of the holy angels, and even God Himself could not expel them. {SR 27.3}

Angels were commissioned to immediately guard the way of the tree of life. It was Satan's studied plan that Adam and Eve should disobey God, receive His frown, and then partake of the tree of life, that they might perpetuate a life of sin. But holy angels were sent to debar their way to the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light on every side, which had the appearance of glittering swords. {SR 41.1}

He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God and be brought into the beautiful garden and eat of the fruit of the tree of life. {SR 42.2}

I understood you to believe that if the eated once of the tree of life that they would live forever. That's not what you meant?

You understand that immortality doesn't come from a tree, don't you? Immortality comes from God. So regardless of whether or not one were to eat from the tree of life, one would only have immortality if God so desired. God is not beholden to a tree.

She seems to be saying it was Satan's studied plan to cause the fall of mankind, to gain unlimited access to the fruit of the tree of life, to amass a vast and powerful and immortal army, and then to overthrow the kingdom of God. I suppose they would have been so busy with their plans that they wouldn't have had time to turn upon one another. In the end, they would have been defeated by the heavenly host. So, rather than destroy each other, Satan would have led them to their death at the hands of God's army.

MM: Tom, you wrote, "I know that's your inclination, which is why I pointed out another possibility for you." I cited two possibilities of the origin or source of "the wrath" Paul mentioned in Rom 5:9 - 1) Our wrath, and 2) God's wrath. You seem to believe it refers to our wrath, which prevents God from benefiting us with the reconciliation and salvation He provided us. Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea described or explained? That is, where does it talk about man's wrath being the thing that prevents God from saving us through Jesus? "... we shall be saved through him from the wrath." Again, where does it describe "the wrath" in these terms?

TE: In Romans 5:9.

Regarding the texts you cited, there are too many discuss all of them, but I'll discuss the first one about the quail.


The "very great plague" with which "the Lord smote the people" was due to the people feasting without restraint. Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits. This is simply another example of this.

As Scott, I think, pointed out, even to this day most Jews do not believe in a literal devil. Everything that happens is attributed to God. Jesus Christ showed the limitations of this view. He demonstrated that in reality, only good things come from God. All the evil that happens is due to that which God permits; He causes none of it.

The following describes this principle well:



This principle isn't limited to plants. It applies to all the bad things there are in the world.