And that is exactly what I believe happens to every sinner at the second death. They bare the guilt of their own transgression, and the hiding of the Father’s face, until their hearts are broken and their lives are crushed out.

That is God’s punishment to all sinners! This is the experience of those who feel God’s wrath. This is the “penalty of sin”.

I especially love this part: “And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression.” It seems like the atonement, the reconciliation that happens between God and us when we see God’s love revealed in the cross, stops this process of “guilt and punishment” from happening. Somehow our knowing God, which is eternal life, which is the at-one-ment, stops the “guilt and punishment” from happening to the believer.

It says to me that if, in spite of the cross, we refuse to be reconciled to God that our sins will cause us so much guilt that our lives will be crushed out as the Holy Spirit is withdrawn and we can no longer feel the presence of God’s love and assurance. It sounds like guilt and hopelessness is what kills men in the end! These two things are major reasons for suicide today even while the Holy Spirit is alive and active.

That would mean that the more sensitive a person is the faster he would become depressed and the faster he would pass away. Those with a harder heart would suffer longer! Not only does hopelessness cause men to be self destructive, but a danger to others. This earth would be hell without the presence of the Holy Spirit comforting us as the Glory of God is revealed in its fullness.

scott

In this statement: "Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice." Ellen is talking about God’s forgiveness. Satan is calling God a liar and unjust if He forgives a sinner without due punishment.

The rest of the quotes are not so much talking about God, but about sin. Are you suggesting that Ellen takes the same position on sin as Satan? Are you saying that Satan was right and God can’t forgive without being a liar and unjust?

scott

This is an interesting point. The SOP says:



There is so much here I like. I emphasized the part about how we will be reconciled if we do not resist, because so many think it's hard to be saved, but that's not really the issue we're discussing here.

The point I wanted to bring out, which had to do with your point, is that it says the love shining from the cross is what reconciles us, or, to use your word, is what bring about the "at-one-ment." It's very interesting that our seeing Christ's bear our "guilt and punishment" for us is the very thing that "stops this process of 'guilt and punishment' from happening."

So there is a definite link between our apprehending Christ's bearing our "guilt and punishment" and our not having to go through the process ourselves. All would agree on this point. Here's the disagreement:

a.You and I would say that by apprehending Christ's bearing our "guilt and punishment," we are reconciled to God, which is to say, our relationship with Him is healed, so that we begin to know Him as He is in truth, and knowing God stops the process from happening to us.

b.An alternative idea is that God will treat us differently because we agreed to do a certain thing. That is, because we have agreed to accept Christ as our personal Savior, God removes (in a legal sense) our sin from us, and transfers (imputes) it to Christ, so that we know longer have to bear its punishment and guilt.

So in view a, we live because we know God, and knowing God changes our perceptions of things, in particular, things relating to guilt, punishment and sin (as well as God's character, of course). In view b, we live because God does not do the thing to us that He does to the wicked which results in their death.

But if God acts like Satan, how can we conclude God is not like Satan? If He is unwilling or unable to forgive sinners if they refuse to forgive one another, how is He any better than sinners?

Yes, in Eden God allowed A&E to sin. But not without first warning them not to. He clearly explained what they could eat and not eat. In the case of the COI, however, God included in the law of Moses things they could do, which, from what you and Tom seem to be saying, were sinful. He didn't do this with A&E. That is, He didn't frame a law allowing them to sin with impunity.

What was God trying to accomplish by including polygamy in the law of Moses? Why didn't He disallow it? Where in the Bible did He rescind it? If polygamy is sinful, why did God include it in the law of Moses? Why did He command the following:

Deuteronomy
25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.
25:6 And it shall be, [that] the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother [which is] dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.
25:7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother.
25:8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and [if] he stand [to it], and say, I like not to take her;
25:9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house.
25:10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

Hi MM,

In that culture the men went to war and because of the violence of the times there were a lot more women than men. In their society there was no provision for women to be alone. God saw, in His wisdom, that it was better to allow multiple wives than to force women into poverty and prostitution.

A story is told of missionaries preaching the gospel to tribesmen with multiple wives. They were converted to Jesus and the missionaries made sure they understood that God frowned on polygamy. The newly converted chief came to church the next week and announced that He had killed all of his wives except for his favorite. He did it out of kindness because had he divorced them they would have been forced into poverty and been shunned by society.

We have a long way to go and God sometimes has to take us one baby step at a time.



Being made free means that God allows us to sin! We are not created puppets. God doesn't control us, but would appreciate if we would learn to control ourselves.

Do you think that God gave us the law to disregard our freedom? Do you think that God is saying to us, "Obey Me or I'll kill you"?

scott

It's interesting to consider the counsel, "Judge not that ye be not judged" in the context you pointed out.



If you think about it, it can't be any other way. That is, God has to judge us according to our standard of judgment, because that's what we understand.

There are examples of God's doing this all throughout Scripture. And because God does this, people often mistake the judgment God is using as if it were His own, rather than being an accommodation to people who don't understand Him or His ways. In order to get us from A to B, if we are at A, God needs to meet us at A. The wonderful thing to look forward to is that there is X, Y, Z, and an infinity beyond. God's goodness will always be beyond where we happen to be; like Paul said, a love which is beyond understanding.

This issue here isn't how God acts, but how God is perceived to act. For example, in the parable of the talents given to each servant to invest, one was given one talent, which he put under his pillow, so to speak. He offered as an excuse that he knew his boss was a harsh task-master, and thus he acted the way he did. In the parable, the boss explained that he, the servant, knowing him (the boss) to be a harsh task-master should have done something wiser with his talent. So the boss met the servant where he was.

That is what I'm seeing too, Tom!

Our values of "fairness" skew our vision of God in the sense that we could easily perceive Him as being unfair or unjust depending on our own perception of justice. Clifford Goldstein wrote a book based on Job called "How Dare You Judge Us God". In His book he comes to the conclusion that if God doesn't meet out "revenge" for all the oppressed people in this life then He has done them a great injustice.

Slaves, victims of perverse governments, victims of the Holocaust, victims of war, victims of genocide, children who die being abused, bitter people who were oppressed in this life who don't make it to heaven and were totally treated unjust during their stay here on earth. In other words the punishment of the wicked is for the justice of the wicked. Those in the Holy City, having spent 1000 years with Jesus, have forgiven, but God promises justice to everyone, even the unsaved.

Maybe when the second resurrection happens the wicked will be given a panoramic view of Jesus and the cross and their minds will be open to the thousands of times the Holy Spirit spoke to them. They will see how Jesus forgave them, in His last dying breath, and God will convict them to forgive those who harmed them and enter the city on their knees.

Instead they choose to hold on to their bitterness and again they listen to the voice of Satan over God's voice and instead of humbling themselves and accepting God's forgiveness, by forgiving others, they decide to follow Satan and take the city by force. Thus proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that God's judgments were right and He knew exactly who to resurrect in which resurrection.

This scenario would make the reason for the 2nd resurrection a matter of vindicating God's judgment rather than a matter of God's vengeance. Also it would be a fulfillment of Jesus' words telling us we will be judged by the criteria that we set. Vengeance or grace!

If God opens the history books (DVD records) for 1000 years so that we can review them and have all our questions answered then us knowing for sure that the lost couldn't be saved is a huge priority to God. We can't enter eternity believing that God made one mistake and someone is lost who should have been there. Or someone is there who shouldn't have been forgiven. I know that if Hitler was my neighbor in heaven I would want to see some evidence of his conversion.

Just thinking out loud!

scott

According to the SOP this is precisely what will happen. Have you read it?


Why would God do this? Is there any hope, however slight, they might forgive and be received in the city at last, to enjoy bliss forever? If not, is there another reason why God resurrects the wicked? Why not just leave them dead?