1.I know of people who have tried to assume a middle ground, being neither pre nor postlapsarian, but I only see two possibilities. Everybody agrees that Christ had a body subject to becoming tired and hungry, etc. The only point I'm aware of that this is disagreement upon, regarding Christ's human nature, is whether He could be tempted as we are (i.e. by our fallen natures). Another way to say it would be if Christ assumed the same nature that we do by heredity. Postlapsarians say Christ did, and prelasparians say He didn't.

There are people of both camps who believe that Christ have failed, or that he could not have.

2.Regarding being in harmony with inspired commentary, I don't see how that's possible, unless the idea one has regarding Christ's humanity agrees with what Jones, Waggoner, Prescott, and Haskell taught, because inspired commentary endorses their view on this question.

3.Regarding motivation and emphasis, the SOP tells us that the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was the revelation of God, in order to set men right with Him. I agree with this. The emphasis and motivation should be on God's character. If we love God, we will keep His commandments. To love God, one must know Him as He is in truth, as He was revealed by His Son.

That's why I don't think you see what I'm looking at.


Consider this: Do we have the "mind of Christ" by heredity? Did Jesus have the "mind of Christ"? Did Adam have the "mind of Christ" before the Fall? Did Adam have the "mind of Christ" after the Fall?

Here's another way of looking at it: "Every one who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." {ST, July 23, 1902 par. 14} Are we born in that "condition of sinlessness"? Was Jesus born in that "condition of sinlessness"? Did He ever have that "condition of sinlessness"? Did Adam have that "condition of sinlessness" before the Fall? Did Adam have that "condition of sinlessness" after the Fall?

What are your answers?

When I list my answers to these questions, it is clear to me that Jesus was not like post-Fall Adam. And I can easily make a set of questions that will show that Jesus was not like pre-Fall Adam.


Did any of these people you mention ever teach that Jesus needed a "transformation of nature" {DA 172.1} like the rest of us do? Did any of them ever teach that Jesus had a fallen and corrupt mind, like Adam did after his fall?


Amen!

Lucifer did. And we know how that turned out.


If he failed to deceive Jesus, then he was lost. How could Jesus sin if He was not deceived about God?


A messed up body can only go so far. The crucial point is to avoid having a messed up mind.


You cannot count all the creatures there are. You can only count the ones that Satan tempted. After Adam and Eve fell, Satan was quarantined here. So, how many did he tempt before his success in Eden? I don't think it was quintillions.


The difficulty of a temptation lies in how much the mind wants to gratify it. Unless Christ's mind goes along with it, the temptation is powerless.


Yes, tempted. But as far as the possibility of falling into sin, the body is inconsequential. The mind is the key, for Jesus and us.


Again, if one has the mind of Christ, can he sin?

Lucifer did not know God like Jesus Christ did.



Also, no one would say that Lucifer's temptations were difficult. They were self-induced. Indeed, it was a very difficult fight for Lucifer to give in to the temptations which were of his own devisings. He almost didn't make it.

Jesus Christ's temptations, OTOH, like ours, were difficult. Why? Because He took our flesh.

Regarding how Jesus Christ would sin if not deceived, it would be precisely by giving into temptation. For example, He knew He had to go to the cross in order to save humanity. But, because of taking our fallen nature, it was not His desire, according to the flesh, to do so. He prayed 3 times for the cup to pass from Him. He prayed, "Not my will, but thine be done." Had He not taken our flesh, where would the struggle have come from? He would not have had a will which needed to be denied.



The flesh has an impact on the mind.



Unless the mind accedes to the temptation, the temptation is overcome, but that doesn't mean it is powerless. It can be very difficult to overcome.

Also this is sort of begging the question. For example, when Satan presented the Kingdoms of this world to Christ, the SOP tells us that Christ immediately turned His head. Why? So He wouldn't give into the temptation. But what interest could the Kingdoms of this world possibly have for Christ, not matter how long He stared at them, unless He took our flesh? Where would the strength of the temptation come from, if not the flesh?



Of course all the creatures in the universe should be counted to consider my point, which was that sin is extremely rare in the universe. To establish how rare, we would have to consider how many creatures there are, and how many of them sinned.



I think that's unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. I've had many of these conversations.



You'd have to define what you meant by the "mind of Christ."



This is mixing apples and oranges. A condition of sinlessness is not a condition that one is born with, but which one develops by overcoming. Christ developed a perfect character; He wasn't born with one. "Sinlessness" has to do with character, not with the flesh. It's not something one is born with.



This is like asking if a television set is created with a condition of sinlessness.



Yes; He developed a perfect character.



Adam was in the process of forming a character, and would have developed a perfect character, had he been faithful. He was living without sinning.



If you mean immediately after the fall, no. If you mean at the end of his life, perhaps.



But your questions do not have to do with the flesh. No one claims that Jesus was just like post-Fall Adam; just that His flesh was.



These would be questions that have to do with the flesh.

Tom,

First, Jesus Christ was not omniscient, right?

"With the issues of the conflict before Him, Christ's soul was filled with dread of separation from God. Satan told Him that if He became the surety for a sinful world, the separation would be eternal. He would be identified with Satan's kingdom, and would nevermore be one with God. And what was to be gained by this sacrifice? How hopeless appeared the guilt and ingratitude of men!" (DA 687).

"The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal" (DA 753).

Second, even knowing God well, He could have doubts as all of us can.

"While the load of the world's sin was upon Christ, doubts rent his soul in regard to his oneness with his Father." {BEcho, August 1, 1892 par. 10}

"Satan flattered himself that he could lead Christ to doubt the words spoken from heaven at His baptism. If he could tempt Him to question His sonship, and doubt the truth of the word spoken by His Father, he would gain a great victory. ... Satan hoped that he could insinuate doubts as to His Father's love, which would find a lodgment in the mind of Christ, and that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger He would exert His miraculous power in His own behalf and take Himself out of the hands of His heavenly Father. This was indeed a temptation to Christ." {Con 41.1}

We're getting into deep waters here! My opinion is that Jesus Christ, as God, was omniscient, but as man was not.



I'm sure Christ was tempted to doubt, and that taking our flesh made those temptations severe.

I guess if you're going to quote from EGW on the temptations in the wilderness, it would be good to add that she says what made Christ's temptations so difficult was His bearing our sins. That's another element. In addition to taking our flesh, He bore our sins as well.

R: Second, even knowing God well, He could have doubts as all of us can.

MM: Did Jesus "have" doubts? Or, was He tempted to doubt?

Was the life of Jesus "sinless"? Did jesus ever sin while in the flesh on this planet? I feel certain the answer is no. Out of all the "things" jesus did while on earth, He never sinned doing any of them.

It's not a sin to eat fish, nor to feed fish to the masses. It's never a sin to kill a fish and eat it, Jesus did it. It's not a sin to question God, for Jesus did it while nailed to the cross.

We can do anything that Jesus did while on this earth, and be CERTAIN that it's not a sin, for HE has SHOWN us the way to a perfect life on earth, hooray for Jesus!

Amen! Thanx, f2b.

It seems some doubts, as doubts about His Father’s love, would have led Him to sin; so He couldn’t harbor them. But I think He had certain doubts – for instance, He had doubts as to if He would rise from the dead.