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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#100908
07/15/08 01:28 PM
07/15/08 01:28 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom and Scott, I'm having a difficult time accepting the idea that God compromised to accommodate sinning in the law of Moses because circumstances forced Him to take the Jews where they were, to start at A (winking at sinning) hoping to arrive at Z (living in perfect harmony with God's will).
I agree that later on God gave in and gave them a king (which was not part of the law of Moses), but is this the same thing as saying He gave in at the beginning, at Sinai, and framed laws that winked at sinning, at transgressing the law? I am here referring to your observations that polygamy violates the 7th commandment. Do you have inspired statements to support these ideas?
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#100909
07/15/08 01:30 PM
07/15/08 01:30 PM
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PS - I'm also have trouble accepting the idea that God is forced to behave like Satan in order to reach sinners. Do you have Bible or SOP backing for this idea?
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#100921
07/15/08 04:10 PM
07/15/08 04:10 PM
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By MM: Why would God do this? Is there any hope, however slight, they might forgive and be received in the city at last, to enjoy bliss forever? If not, is there another reason why God resurrects the wicked? Why not just leave them dead? No matter what happens in the end the wicked will not change their minds. God knew who could be saved and took them in the 1st resurrection and the others could not be saved. Their characters are so that everything God says is turned up side down. If God threw open the gate and made an appeal to them they would still listen to their god, Satan, because that is who they worship. If they had the choice to repent or side with Satan to take the city be storm they would listen to Satan. Repenting is choosing brokenness and the sin of the wicked is selfishness and pride. If God did invite them all in and they all chose not to accept His invitation, and move in concert with Satan, would not this be vindication of God’s judgment? Just because the Bible says that none from the 2nd resurrection are saved does it have to be by God’s decree or is there a slight possibility that it is descriptive of what happens rather that prescriptive of what God will do? The way I see it is that God knows the heart and is the only one qualified to decide who will come up in the first resurrection. Therefore anyone who comes up in the second resurrection can’t be saved. But what could ever prove God right other than giving the wicked another opportunity and watching them choose Satan over God again. Sin will never happen again because all are convinced that God is love and He is right. God can’t leave one doubt in anyone’s mind. If the wicked had 1000 chances they would choose Satan because they hate righteousness and they love evil! scott
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#100922
07/15/08 04:15 PM
07/15/08 04:15 PM
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by MM: Tom and Scott, I'm having a difficult time accepting the idea that God compromised to accommodate sinning in the law of Moses because circumstances forced Him to take the Jews where they were, to start at A (winking at sinning) hoping to arrive at Z (living in perfect harmony with God's will). God calls you and I “Saints” and even calls us righteous in Christ. Isn’t that accommodating sinning in the church until He finishes His work in us? scott
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100930
07/15/08 11:11 PM
07/15/08 11:11 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom and Scott, I'm having a difficult time accepting the idea that God compromised to accommodate sinning in the law of Moses because circumstances forced Him to take the Jews where they were, to start at A (winking at sinning) hoping to arrive at Z (living in perfect harmony with God's will).
I agree that later on God gave in and gave them a king (which was not part of the law of Moses), but is this the same thing as saying He gave in at the beginning, at Sinai, and framed laws that winked at sinning, at transgressing the law? This is the same principle. The people did not get worse. They were already bad at Sinai, so in the same way God accommodated the people's hardhardedness and stiffneckedness in regards to having a king, so he did with the following: a.Divorce b.Polygamy c.Killings one's enemies to obtain their possessions d.Taking whatever woman one desires, after killing her husband e.Returning evil for evil ("eye for eye" as opposed to "turn the other cheek") f.Cutting off women's hands to name a few. Jesus Christ never taught that any of these things should be done, nor did He do any of these things Himself. Indeed, it defies one's imagination to suppose He would do any of these things. I am here referring to your observations that polygamy violates the 7th commandment. Do you have inspired statements to support these ideas? I have one! God has not sanctioned polygamy in a single instance. It was contrary to his will. He knew that the happiness of man would be destroyed by it. (1SP 94)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Tom]
#100947
07/17/08 01:26 AM
07/17/08 01:26 AM
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God "knew that the happiness of man would be destroyed by it", but how would men have known unless they either trusted God or tried it themselves. Isn't that one of the natural risks of being born with the freedom of choice?
scott
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Tom]
#100954
07/18/08 10:59 AM
07/18/08 10:59 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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MM, no one has been saved except under the NC. Hmm... Slight modification... No one has been saved except under THE Covenant. Said covenant was first iterated to Adam and Eve shortly after their fall. It has been reiterated since, in various flavors, down through the ages, and it was ratified at the cross. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100955
07/18/08 11:16 AM
07/18/08 11:16 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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By MM: Thank you, Scott, for candidly answering my question. Your thoughts lead me to another question: Did God permit sinning in the law of Moses because of culture and hardness of hearts? What do you mean by "Did God permit sinning"? God accepts sinners! Does that mean that God permits sinning? Yes! Should He strike every sinner down dead? Jesus was a friend of sinners. Does that mean He permits sinning? God hates sin, but loves the sinner and works for the sinner’s salvation. Does God truly accept sinners? Are you sure you didn't mean to say "love?" Love and acceptance are not the same, would you agree?
God is not repelled by our sins, but we are repelled and shamed by His righteousness towards sinners. It is God's goodness that leads us to repentance, not God pious arrogance against those who don't measure up.
Is God not repelled by our sins? Why did Jesus die on the cross? Surely it was not Jesus at that moment repelling Himself from God's presence, was it?
Sometimes the things you say leave me thinking you don't really know God at all. You are repelled by God's goodness and hold the position against the idea that God is so good. You insist that He demand an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth or He isn't just.
Judge not. From a third party perspective, it is easier to see where a person's own emotions hinder their understanding. I don't believe MM is insisting what you are projecting upon him. I'll admit that sometimes I too get worked up about something and probably don't see straight. It's best to give the benefit of the doubt.
I don't usually quote Ellen, but you remind me so much of this statement I must.
In quoting this, you are actually quoting the devil...for that is whom she has quoted. In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner. {DA 761.4} Why does it bother you so that some people believe that God can forgive without demanding blood? Why is it so important to you that people who don’t repent get what is coming to them? Isn’t eternal loss of life and eternal separation from God enough punishment? Maybe God could tie them all up and make all of us saints slug those unrepentant sinners in the face for a week or two before the barbeque! If you view God in this way, it is a small wonder that you might run to hide in a defensive state of denial regarding God's laws and their rigid authority. It is true that God's law demands death to every sinner. It is also true that the devil knows this, and has accurately outlined the fact in his arguments against God's people. However, it is marvelously true that God fulfilled the law in our place, and has taken our judgment already. We no longer live under the death decree. That is the portion of the law that is no longer binding for us... IF we choose to love God and to keep His commandments, accepting His salvation, in accordance with His Covenant. Of what? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking to be left out of. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100956
07/18/08 11:34 AM
07/18/08 11:34 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Scott, I'm sorry you think I feel God is mean and ugly. Truly, I did not feel this way about Him. I agree with you that He is merciful and loving, not willing that any should be lost. He leaves no stone unturned to win and woo sinners back to His warm and loving embrace.
But my question concerns the law of Moses. Did God permit sinning in the law of Moses because of culture and hardness of hearts? In other words, did He compromise in the law of Moses to accommodate sin-hardened Hebrews? Did He include some of their sinful practices in the law of Moses because they were not ready learn and live the whole truth? Was He intending to fix things later on, to set things right as soon as they were able to grasp and appreciate the truth? Was He willing to wink at certain sins for a season? Did He temporarily permit sinning in the law of Moses? Hi MM, I agree with everything you wrote, but still don’t understand what you mean when you say, “Did He (God) temporarily permit sinning in the Law of Moses”. This confuses me! It seems to me that God permitted sinning in Eden! He made us free will agents which to me simply means that He doesn’t control our minds. The nature of freedom is that God permits us to choose. If we choose sin then God respects our choice. I believe that God does wink at our ignorance and I think this is what you mean by “permitting sinning”. I don’t think that the Law of Moses even made an attempt to cover every possible cultural misconception. It was a step in the right direction always pointing to the sanctuary ceremonies as an object lesson of salvation through Christ. The people sinned out of ignorance and God came and pitched His tent with them. It is in the presence of God that we find healing. What stops men from entering God’s presence? Fear, misunderstanding, and lies believed about God! What did Jesus reveal about God? That we had nothing to fear from Him, but that we needed to draw near to Him! scott There are (at least) two ways to use the word "permit." Please, let's not get into word games over it. In the sense of "give permission, or assent"--NEVER. God has never allowed sin, nor will He ever. The law requires perfect, sinless, loving obedience. I'm glad it does. What a horrible universe we would have with a God of any other character than this! In the sense of "allow" temporarily, on probation, in order to educate all as to the true hideousness of sin, YES. God has allowed sin to spread like a disease for a time. But when all have seen enough to make them vomit at the thought of sin, when all have determined to never, never, never sin again, and when all have seen that God's way is truly the best, most loving, and the happiest solution--THEN will God do what He has determined to do from the very onset of sin: Destroy it. Given time, all will see the wisdom of God in not punishing the sin instantly when it first began. But to flippantly say that God "permits" sin is to imply something about His character which is a gross misrepresentation. God hates sin with a perfect hatred. He never "permits" sin. He asks for full obedience to His laws--which are our only safety and happiness--because He wants us to be happy. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100969
07/18/08 04:11 PM
07/18/08 04:11 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE:MM, no one has been saved except under the NC.
GC:Hmm...
Slight modification...
No one has been saved except under THE Covenant.
Said covenant was first iterated to Adam and Eve shortly after their fall. It has been reiterated since, in various flavors, down through the ages, and it was ratified at the cross.
The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are not the same thing. This is made clearly by Jeremiah, where God speaks of a covenant (the New Covenant) He will make unlike another covenant (the Old Covenant). In the New Covenant, the law is written in the heart. An EGW comment: The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. "This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts . . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:33, 34.
The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. (PP 372) In one covenant (the Old): a.The law was engraved on stone b.One goes about to establish one's own righteousness. In the other covenant (the New): a.The law is written in the heart b.One accepts the righteousness of Christ. No one was saved under the Old Covenant. Anyone who is saved will be saved under the New Covenant.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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