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Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #101599
08/14/08 02:23 PM
08/14/08 02:23 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
How can you say there was a "chance" holy angels might have rebelled?


That's what happened. Holy angels rebelled.

 Quote:
What accounts for this chance? Obviously it wasn't on account of a design flaw.


As you pointed out, sin involves mystery. We cannot give an explanation as to why it happened, or it would cease to be sin. However, free will made it possible to happen.

 Quote:
She never said the holy angels were insecure before the cross.


She said without the cross they would be no more secure than they were before Satan's rebellion. This is equivalent to what you are alleging she didn't say.

 Quote:
Did the unfallen angels believe Satan's lying accusations about God? What do you mean by some of them were "confused"?


By "confused" I mean they weren't sure.

 Quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.

It was a being of wonderful power and glory that had set himself against God. Of Lucifer the Lord says, "Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." Ezek. 28:12. Lucifer had been the covering cherub. He had stood in the light of God's presence. He had been the highest of all created beings, and had been foremost in revealing God's purposes to the universe. After he had sinned, his power to deceive was the more deceptive, and the unveiling of his character was the more difficult, because of the exalted position he had held with the Father.(DA 758)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #101636
08/15/08 03:26 PM
08/15/08 03:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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God foresaw the fall of angels. Chance had nothing to do with it. Nevertheless, that they chose to sin and rebel is still mysterious and unexplainable.

In what sense where the angels insecure before Satan's rebellion? Did angelic insecurities lead Satan to rebel?

What was it about God and the law that the "confused" angels were unsure about? Quotes please. Thank you.

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #101660
08/16/08 01:53 AM
08/16/08 01:53 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
God foresaw the fall of angels.


He foresaw the possibility of it. It wasn't a certainty that it would happen (else God would be responsible for bringing about a circumstance in which sin was certain to happen, which isn't possible, since there is no explanation for sin. Certainly if God created beings certain to sin, that would be an explanation!)

 Quote:
Chance had nothing to do with it.


Not chance, but choice. It had to do with choice. There was beings would choose to rebel, and a chance they wouldn't. There was no reason for beings to rebel.

 Quote:
In what sense where the angels insecure before Satan's rebellion?


Read the quote cited. It explains in what sense.

 Quote:
Did angelic insecurities lead Satan to rebel?


It sounds like you're confusing "insecure" with "not being secure."

 Quote:
What was it about God and the law that the "confused" angels were unsure about? Quotes please. Thank you.


I answered this and provided the quote. I just answered this in the post right before yours!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #101736
08/18/08 09:22 PM
08/18/08 09:22 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
 Quote:
God foresaw the fall of angels.

He foresaw the possibility of it. It wasn't a certainty that it would happen (else God would be responsible for bringing about a circumstance in which sin was certain to happen, which isn't possible, since there is no explanation for sin. Certainly if God created beings certain to sin, that would be an explanation!)

 Quote:
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #101737
08/18/08 11:16 PM
08/18/08 11:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Her statement does not say, "He saw the certainty of its existence." He foresaw the possibility of its existence, not the certainty of it.

He created beings with free will, so it was possible for them to sin, and he was ready in case that happened. There are many places where she uses this kind of language. She didn't teach that sin was inevitable.

Are you familiar with this statement?

 Quote:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.(DA 49)


Here's another similar one:

 Quote:
Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled.(COL 196)


God gave His Son, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. This means there was a possibility of failure, which means the outcome was not certain.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #101749
08/19/08 08:15 PM
08/19/08 08:15 PM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
Her statement does not say, "He saw the certainty of its existence." He foresaw the possibility of its existence, not the certainty of it.

Look at the quote again:
 Quote:
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.

If one wanted to speak of the possibility of sin, the way to say it would have been, "He foresaw its possibility." To require EGW to say "the certainty of its existence" is to make her talk like she worked for the Department of Redundancy Department, and worse, it changes the object of her sentence. Most people, when they see a cat, would not say, "I saw the certainty of a cat's presence."

And a look at the preceeding sentence tells us that God knew of the fall of Satan and man from the beginning. He didn't find out about it at the end, or right after it happened. He knew from the beginning.

But let's look at God's foreknowledge in the SOP. Did God only foresee possibilities, or certainties?

 Quote:
He foresaw that in the hour of temptation every one of His beloved disciples would be severely tested. {DA 394.2}

Christ knew, when he permitted Judas to connect with him as one of the twelve, that Judas was possessed of the demon of selfishness. He knew that this professed disciple would betray him, and yet he did not separate him from the other disciples, and send him away. He was preparing the minds of these men for his death and ascension, and he foresaw that should he dismiss Judas, Satan would use him to spread reports that would be difficult to meet and explain. {RH, May 12, 1903 par. 13}

He foresaw that men would be engaged in every selfish work, living without fear of God, eating, drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, when the day of final judgment was about to break. {RH, September 25, 1888 par. 4}

Even before He took humanity upon Him, He saw the whole length of the path He must travel in order to save that which was lost. Every pang that rent His heart, every insult that was heaped upon His head, every privation that He was called to endure, was open to His view before He laid aside His crown and royal robe, and stepped down from the throne, to clothe His divinity with humanity. The path from the manger to Calvary was all before His eyes. He knew the anguish that would come upon Him. He knew it all, and yet He said, "Lo, I come: in the volume of the Book it is written of Me, I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:7, 8. {DA 410.1}

Ever before Him He saw the result of His mission. His earthly life, so full of toil and self-sacrifice, was cheered by the prospect that He would not have all this travail for nought. ... for the joy that was set before Him, He chose to endure the cross, and despised the shame. {DA 410.2}

When Jesus revealed to His disciples the fate of Jerusalem and the scenes of the second advent, He foretold also the experience of His people from the time when He should be taken from them, to His return in power and glory for their deliverance. From Olivet the Saviour beheld the storms about to fall upon the apostolic church; and penetrating deeper into the future, His eye discerned the fierce, wasting tempests that were to beat upon His followers in the coming ages of darkness and persecution. {GC 39.1}

Christ saw how the existence of false brethren in the church would cause the way of truth to be evil spoken of. {COL 122.2}

He foresaw the time when the Lord would renew His covenant relationship with them. "Their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all." Jeremiah 31:12. {PK 408.2}

He was permitted to look down the stream of time and behold the first advent of our Saviour. ... He beheld Christ's ... rejection by a proud, unbelieving nation. Amazed he listened to their boastful exaltation of the law of God, while they despised and rejected Him by whom the law was given.... Moses beheld the final rejection of that people so highly blessed of Heaven ... He followed the Saviour to Gethsemane, and beheld the agony in the garden, the betrayal, the mockery and scourging--the crucifixion. ... He saw Him lying in Joseph's new tomb. ... And it was there revealed to him that he himself would be one who should attend the Saviour, and open to Him the everlasting gates. {PP 475-476}

The eye of Christ rested upon him, reading his character and his life history. His impulsive nature, his loving, sympathetic heart, his ambition and self-confidence, the history of his fall, his repentance, his labors, and his martyr death,--the Saviour read it all, and He said, "Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone." {DA 139.5}

This is just a small sampling. I got tired of cutting and pasting.

But we see here that God is not just a very good prognosticator, who has a real good handle on statistics. He KNOWS what WILL happen.

Furthermore, we cannot say that God could predict these things with certainty because He causes them to happen, unless we are willing to say that God causes sin to happen.

God doesn't just guess well; He knows. He doesn't just know possibilities or probabilities, but certainties. (If He was just showing Moses the various possibilities, Moses would still be up there today.)

But are there times when what is foreseen are possibilities rather than certainties? Certainly.

 Quote:
Paul foresaw that there was danger of his words being misinterpreted... {LP 83.4}

Here we clearly see that Paul saw the possibility of being misinterpreted. And EGW was well able to express the possibility if that's what she wanted to say.

If she wanted to talk about the possibility of sin in DA 22, she could very easily have said something like "the danger of its existence." But she did not. Unless she talked funny, there is no objective reason to believe that is what she meant.

 Originally Posted By: Tom
He created beings with free will, so it was possible for them to sin, and he was ready in case that happened. There are many places where she uses this kind of language. She didn't teach that sin was inevitable.

No, sin was not inevitable. But God saw that it was going to happen.

If I set out asparagus and carrots for lunch, it is not inevitable that my son will choose the carrots. But I know for a certainty that he will.

Foreknowledge does not negate free will.

 Originally Posted By: Tom
God gave His Son, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. This means there was a possibility of failure, which means the outcome was not certain.

Sure, there was a possibility of failure. But let's not forget this:
 Quote:
Ever before Him He saw the result of His mission. {DA 410.2}


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #101753
08/19/08 09:37 PM
08/19/08 09:37 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
If one wanted to speak of the possibility of sin, the way to say it would have been, "He foresaw its possibility." To require EGW to say "the certainty of its existence" is to make her talk like she worked for the Department of Redundancy Department, and worse, it changes the object of her sentence. Most people, when they see a cat, would not say, "I saw the certainty of a cat's presence."

And a look at the preceeding sentence tells us that God knew of the fall of Satan and man from the beginning. He didn't find out about it at the end, or right after it happened. He knew from the beginning.


He knew of the possibility. It wasn't a certainty.

She counseled us to do with her writings what we do with Scripture, which is to compare what she wrote on a subject in different places to come to a conclusion. If the statement you sited were the only thing she had written on the subject, I would likely agree with your interpretation, but taking into account other things she has written, I can't.

My point here is that it is possible that she had in mind simply that God knew that man could fall, and that she was not intending to say more than that.

 Quote:
But let's look at God's foreknowledge in the SOP. Did God only foresee possibilities, or certainties?


Since, generally speaking, the future is comprised of possibilities and not certainties (especially where free will is involved), foreseeing possibilities is the only possibility, which is a certainty. \:\)

 Quote:
He foresaw that in the hour of temptation every one of His beloved disciples would be severely tested. {DA 394.2}


You quoted too many to go into each one, but just considering this one, it seems to me clear this is saying that Christ knew based on His knowledge of reality that each one would be tempted. That is, He understood the world as it was, He knew what the Jews were like, He knew they would persecute anyone proclaiming the Gospel. It seems to me to be reading way, way too much into this statement if you interpret it to mean that Christ foresaw everything that would ever happen to His disciples at any time.

I'm sorry I cannot, because of a hand problem, respond to each point as I normally would.

 Quote:
No, sin was not inevitable. But God saw that it was going to happen.


It should be pretty easy to see the contradiction in this! Unless you think it's possible for God to know something will happen and the thing not happen.

Now this is not to say that God's seeing that sin would happen caused sin to happen, but certainly, if you don't believe it's possible for God to foresee that something will happen and have the thing not happen, it should be easy to see that sin was inevitable.

Just ask the question, what was the probability sin would happen? Aren't you constrained to say 100%? Otherwise God foresaw some probability less than 100% that sin would occur.

To put it another way, if God foresaw that it was 100% certain that sin would occur, then it was 100% certain that sin would occur.

 Quote:
Foreknowledge does not negate free will.


A lack of possibilities does though. Can something possibly happen other than what God has foreseen? If there is only one possible thing that can happen, then free will consists of choosing that one thing.

 Quote:
Sure, there was a possibility of failure.


If Christ could possibly have failed, then God could not have foreseen that Christ had no possibility of failing.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #101757
08/19/08 10:02 PM
08/19/08 10:02 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
To require EGW to say "the certainty of its existence" is to make her talk like she worked for the Department of Redundancy Department, and worse, it changes the object of her sentence. Most people, when they see a cat, would not say, "I saw the certainty of a cat's presence."

LOL ... That one was great ... made my day. \:\)

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Rosangela] #101762
08/20/08 02:29 AM
08/20/08 02:29 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
LOL ... That one was great ... made my day. \:\)

Glad to be of service. ;\)


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #101767
08/20/08 04:35 PM
08/20/08 04:35 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
To require EGW to say "the certainty of its existence" is to make her talk like she worked for the Department of Redundancy Department, and worse, it changes the object of her sentence.


She could have said that God foresaw that sin would certainly occur, that would have been normal English, but she never taught this. Consider the following:

Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right.

Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven, and the heavenly choir sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, because of the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Then praise and adoration was poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus, in consenting to leave the bosom of His Father, and choosing a life of suffering and anguish, and an ignominious death, that He might give life to others.

Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them.
(Early Writings 126)

This whole account is nonsense if one takes the view that anything that would happen was a foregone conclusion known by God. In particular:

 Quote:
Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe.


Was Jesus just putting on a show? Or did something really happen here? Was a decision actually made? If so, how could that have happened, since, taking the position that anything that would happen is a foregone conclusion, any "decision" would have already been foreknown.

Also:

 Quote:
Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them.


How could God possibly have had a "struggle" if He knew from all eternity precisely what He was going to do? He was going to:

a.Have three meetings with His Son
b.On the third meeting be "convinced" after a "struggle" to go along with His Son's wishes.
c.He would have an angel explain to a prophetess that this was a "struggle."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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