No, I don’t think God is waiting to reveal it to them until a more appropriate time. Rather, I think that it’s their mind that is not able to apprehend, at the same time, everything God is trying to communicate.


I just posted those quotes to demonstrate that if we cherish sinful traits we can never enter the kingdom of God.


Sinful traits, to me, are synonymous with sinful tendencies. Do you agree with this?

R: No, I don’t think God is waiting to reveal it to them until a more appropriate time. Rather, I think that it’s their mind that is not able to apprehend, at the same time, everything God is trying to communicate.

MM: What do you mean by "apprehend"? Do you mean grasp, understand, comprehend? Is God trying to reveal to them all of their sinful habits and traits at the same time before they are born again?

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R: Sinful traits, to me, are synonymous with sinful tendencies. Do you agree with this?

MM: A trait is a characteristic; whereas, a tendency is a propensity. We develop traits and resist tendencies.

I'm glad you clarified this. "Traits" is commonly used to express genetic traits, but you are excluding this from your use (which is fine, as long as everyone understands what you mean).

So you believe, if I'm understanding you correctly, that every single sinful characteristic that one has developed in one's lifetime must be overcome *before* one can be born again?

I think when one is born again, the work has just begun! What I see as being the prerequisite to being born again is a perception of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross, and a response to that love in the form of repentance and submission.

I don't think it's fine. The term is used by Ellen White, so we must know what she means. The search shows 28 references to "hereditary and cultivated traits" of character. It's evident, to me, that traits = tendencies.

Why can't MM use words the way he wants, as long as he is clear about what he is doing? He is clearly wanting to differentiate between two concepts, one being things that are passed genetically vs. things which are developed by experience. It seems to me the way he is going about it is one reasonable way of doing so.

There's no reason we need to use words exactly the way Ellen White did. Even Ellen White didn't use words the way she did all all the time! For example, she uses "sinful nature" to mean different things. Many other examples could be given.

She explains in her chapters on inspiration in 1SM that there isn't a one to one correspondence between words and ideas. MM is trying to express an idea, and I think he did so clearly.

However, that being said, I would agree that it would be clearer if he spoke of "developed traits" and "developed tendencies" rather than simply "traits" and "tendencies," as the distinction he makes seems to be an arbitrary one. Indeed, I had to check his post to see which was which (i.e. if "traits" were genetic as opposed to developed).

Tom,

We were discussing about how to harmonize two EGW passages - OHC 39.3 which speaks of sinful tendencies, and AH 16 which speaks of sinful traits.
Since both are from Ellen White, we must give the terms the meaning she gives to them. As I said, I see no difference in the way she uses both terms, so they are synonyms.
The passages can be harmonized by the fact that she mentions that "the traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection."

I don't think MM was discussing simply how to harmonize two EGW passages. I think he is discussing his overall theory, and uses these words more to explain what he thinks, not what EGW is saying (in terms of the words used; I'm sure he thinks EGW is saying the same thing he is). But, of course, MM himself would have to clarify his intent. Assuming I'm right about his intent, I don't see a problem with him using these words in the way he described, although I would clarify them with adjectives myself.

In terms of the ideas involved (in the context of this thread), I think you and I are on the same page.

Actually, I believe people are born with all of the traits of character (traits, not character) common to mankind. As they grow and mature, they cultivate some of the traits they inherited thereby converting them into character. They naturally, instinctively cultivate sinful character.

Collectively these cultivated traits are called the "old man". They also constitute a driving force within people which compels them to sin again and again. The rest of the traits they inherited at birth lay dormant within them, uncultivated, and as such do not count as character. Jesus was also born with all of the traits of character common to mankind.

During the process of conversion, before people experience rebirth, the Holy Spirit shows them, for the first time, their sinful, cultivated traits of character in light of the cross. This new revelation causes them to love Jesus and to hate sin; thus, they are motivated from on High to confess and crucify their old man.

Jesus never cultivated sinful traits of character, therefore, He never had to confess or crucify them. Consequently, neither did He have the sinful propensities associated with cultivated sinful traits of character.

The old man dies the moment people experience the miracle of rebirth. The sinful propensities associated with sinful character also dies. God implants within them all of His righteous attributes of character, all of the fruits of the Spirit.

As born again believers abide in Jesus, as they walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, as they partake of the divine nature - they grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit, they cultivate sinless traits of character. Jesus, of course, only cultivated sinless traits of character.

Regarding tendencies. At birth people also inherit all of the sinful tendencies, inclinations, propensities common to mankind. This aspect of human nature differs from hereditary traits of character in that it compels people to cultivate inherited traits of character in a sinful manner. It is called "sinful flesh".

Born again believers retain this aspect of human nature after they experience the miracle of rebirth. It will continue to war against them, against the Spirit and mind of the new man, until the day Jesus arrives and replaces it with a sinless flesh. Jesus, I believe, inherited the same sinful flesh at His incarnation.


Correct. However, please understand I’m referring to “representative sins”, not the hundreds and thousands of individual sins that resulted in specific traits of character. For example, people confess, during the process of converting, in light of the cross, the representative sin of impatience. They do not have to confess the thousands of times they were impatient, or the hundreds of different ways they were impatient. The Holy Spirit will, however, bring to mind specific incidences that were particularly offensive and destructive. These must be repented of, too.


I agree. But I also believe people experience rebirth during the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. A person is reborn the moment they confess and crucify their old man, their cultivated sinful traits of character. The following insights confirm this position. Please note the when-then, before and after relationships she describes:

R: No, I don’t think God is waiting to reveal it to them until a more appropriate time. Rather, I think that it’s their mind that is not able to apprehend, at the same time, everything God is trying to communicate.

MM: What do you mean by "apprehend"? Do you mean grasp, understand, comprehend? Is God trying to reveal to them all of their sinful habits and traits at the same time before they are born again?

MM, I don't see the distinction in your thought between justification, sanctification, and perfection of character. Is there any? It seems you believe that one must have a perfect character in order to be justified.