Tom, you wrote – “It would be difficult to characterize one in heaven as morally imperfect. Perhaps "morally immature" would be a better term.” This is what I have been trying to understand. Are you saying the moral imperfections (i.e. the cultivated sinful traits of character) the thief took with him to the grave will change into "morally immature" habits when he is resurrected? If so, what will cause the change, the transformation?


Yes, people who experience the miracle of rebirth in God’s appointed way, as opposed to a counterfeit way, are born again morally complete, morally perfect (but not necessarily mentally perfect, that is, they may not have learned certain truths which require Bible and prayer to arrive at, such as Sabbath-keeping and health reform).

People are born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments. Thus they are not ignorant of the wrongness of the habits and traits they have cultivated. Non-believers feel guilt and shame when they do things that are morally wrong. However, they might not understand why they feel bad or realize that their habits and traits violate the law of God.

During the process of conversion, the Holy Spirit gradually reveals to these people, for the first time, their cultivated sinful habits and traits of character in light of the cross. Of course they were already aware their moral wrongness, but seeing them in light of the cross is a whole new revelation of their sins, and it causes them to love Jesus and to hate their sinfulness properly. They want to be born again, to die to sin, self, and Satan.

The moment they confess and crucify their old man habits and traits of character they experience the miracle of rebirth. Their sinful character dies, and God implants within them all of His righteous traits of character, all of the fruits of the Spirit. Not one is missing. They are born again with sinless traits of character, which they begin cultivating immediately. They begin as babes, and day by day, year after year, they grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit in exactly the same way Jesus did. This process begins here, but eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust it.

“We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

“The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

Tom, you said the thief took certain uncrucified cultivated sinful traits of character with him to the grave. Then you said in the resurrection these certain sinful traits of character will be reclassified as "morally mature", that it wouldn't make sense to label them "moral imperfections". Do you really believe this, or did I misunderstand you?

By the way, the quote you posted earlier (COL 65) does not address this situation. Instead, she is describing the process of sanctification, which happens before people die. She wrote - "At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement."

You seem to think this means the Holy Spirit will be able to gradually make born again believers aware that certain of their habits and cultivated traits of character are sinful, and that these things need to be confessed and crucified. But the "continual advancement" she is referring to has to do with "perfecting holiness", not unperfecting unholiness. Here's how she put it elsewhere:


Do you see what I mean? "... an advance from one stage of perfection to another." Not an advance from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection until we achieve perfection. It's not a process of devolution.


I didn't say anything about it before this recent volley. I was merely addressing your observation regarding my moral perfection and whether or not I still need mercy. I answered it as you have instructed me. I thought I was being a good student.

In case you misunderstood me, though, let me clarify. By "in Christ" I do not mean certain of our sinful habits and cultivated traits of character are unknown to us, and that in Christ God winks at them until the Holy Spirit is finally able to get through to us, or that in Christ God treats us as if we are sinless whereas in reality we are very faulty and defective.

Do you see what I mean?

Instead, I am implying that although people experience moral perfection the moment they crucify their old man habits of sin, their cultivated sinful traits of character, it does not mean they have learned how to obey and observe "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. See Matthew 28:19-20. For example, they might not have learned how to obey and observe the 7th day Sabbath before they experienced the miracle of rebirth. This is not a moral or immoral issue until they are convicted of the truth.

Do you know what I mean?

MM, let's start with this. Where did I say this?

Where did I say this?

Where did I say this?

I agree with what she wrote, and have been saying the same thing. I didn't say anything about advancing from one stage of imperfection to another, did I? If so, where?

Yes, you did, but evidently forgot. You forgot the "in Christ" part. I brought this to your attention, and you agreed with me.



I don't know. Is this what you really believe? Do you believe you are morally perfect? Or that you are morally perfect in Christ? Or are these both the same?



What I don't understand is why you single out the Sabbath. This same principle applies to any unknown behavior.

Tom, regarding your posts #101117, 101118, and 101119 you wrote - Where did I say this? It takes too long to go back and find the quotes. Please just address the points. Thank you.

1. Do you believe the thief took certain uncrucified cultivated sinful traits of character with him to the grave? If not, do you believe he confessed and crucified all of his cultivated sinful traits and habits before he died?

2. Do you believe after the resurrection that all uncrucified cultivated sinful traits of character will be reclassified as "morally mature"? If not, will they still be considered sinful? If so, how and when will they be crucified?

3. Do you believe the Holy Spirit gradually make born again believers aware that certain of their habits and cultivated traits of character are sinful? And, does He expect them to confess and crucify them after they are convicted of the truth?

4. How do you define the difference between sins of ignorance and cultivated sinful traits of character?

5. How do you define the difference between inherited traits of character and cultivated traits of character?

Either both are true or neither one is.


Would you include any of the following behaviors in 1) a list of sins of ignorance, or 2) a list of cultivated traits of character the Holy Spirit might wait to address until after a person experiences the miracle of rebirth?

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Also, what do you exclude from the phrase "and such like", that is, which behaviors do you believe do not belong in this list, behaviors the Holy Spirit might wait to address until after a person experiences the miracle of rebirth? What would He wink at before rebirth happens?

In the past you have listed polygamy as a sinful practice the Holy Spirit might wait to address until after a person experiences the miracle of rebirth; however, you have also argued that polygamy is adultery, which is a sin that prevents people from inheriting the kingdom of God (a phrase that is synonymous with rebirth and justification, see quotes below).

John
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Corinthians
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

This answers the first question as "yes," which explains why you refer to yourself as morally perfect. I guess it answers the other two questions as well, since you used the word "both." This implies you see these as two different things, both of which are true.

I commented I don't understand why you restrict unknown sins to not keeping the Sabbath. You didn't explain this. I wrote the same principle applies to any unknown behavior. I don't know how your questions to me relate to my comment. Please explain the link, and I'll respond.