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Re: The Covenants
[Re: scott]
#101146
07/24/08 12:18 AM
07/24/08 12:18 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Scott asked, "Does your theology allow her to make mistakes or change her mind as things grew clearer?" Does it?
Yes, I believe she grew in her understanding of the truths God revealed to her. I do not, however, believe God revealed things to her later on that contradicted what He revealed to her earlier on. Truth is truth. God reveals truth. Truth doesn't contradict itself. So God has never revealed any truth to anybody which contradicts truth He has revealed to someone else. There is no need to limit your assertion here to Ellen White. Now a person's understanding of truth can contradict another's person's understanding of truth, or even one's own at different points in time. I cannot think of an example of her learning something later on that led her to realize she was wrong, or that led her to change her thinking on a particular point of truth. Can you?
I don't thing "wrong" is the right way of thinking of it. Her views matured. For example, if you read Early Writings, you see her say, "I saw this" "I saw that," without so much explanation of the meanings of the visions. In the Desire of Ages you much deeper explanations. For example, consider the first chapter of the Desire of Ages. She couldn't have written than when she was 18. In particular, can you think of her ever saying something to effect - Earlier in my ministry I wrote stuff that reflected a harsh view of God, but I was young and ill informed, nowadays my views are more accurate, they represent the truth about God, about His love and mercy and compassion. I no longer believe He directly or personally punishes or destroys impenitent sinners. Instead, I have come to realize and believe He reluctantly withdraws His loving protection and either commands holy angels to allow man and nature to unleash their pent up power, or He gives evil angels permission to manipulate man and nature to cause destruction proportionate to the sinfulness of the person or people who have resisted and rejected His loving entreaties and protection. My, there is so much FOTAP here, one doesn't even know where to begin! She also didn't write, "I used to think the moon was made of green cheese, but I no longer do."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: scott]
#101486
08/11/08 05:43 PM
08/11/08 05:43 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Scott asked, "Does your theology allow her to make mistakes or change her mind as things grew clearer?" Does it? Yes, I believe she grew in her understanding of the truths God revealed to her. I do not, however, believe God revealed things to her later on that contradicted what He revealed to her earlier on. I cannot think of an example of her learning something later on that led her to realize she was wrong, or that led her to change her thinking on a particular point of truth. Can you? What about Ellen’s early rejection of a prohibition on pork? What about her position on the “Shut Door Theory”? What about her position on masturbation? What about her learning about the Sabbath? What about her statements that contradict each other such as her taking a dogmatic stand that God punishes the wicked by violently destroying them and then making a statement that God’s punishments are not to be seen as God doing anything other than allowing men to suffer the consequences of their own choices? What about Her insistence that we are the ones being judged in the IJ and then clearly explaining that God has placed Himself on trial in the IJ. What about her embracing the 1888 message and getting excited that the truth was being presented so clearly? By MM: In particular, can you think of her ever saying something to effect - Earlier in my ministry I wrote stuff that reflected a harsh view of God, but I was young and ill informed, nowadays my views are more accurate, they represent the truth about God, about His love and mercy and compassion. I no longer believe He directly or personally punishes or destroys impenitent sinners. Instead, I have come to realize and believe He reluctantly withdraws His loving protection and either commands holy angels to allow man and nature to unleash their pent up power, or He gives evil angels permission to manipulate man and nature to cause destruction proportionate to the sinfulness of the person or people who have resisted and rejected His loving entreaties and protection. This makes no sense to me. What you are purposing is that if Ellen didn’t say it, it isn’t true! Thus all truth is in Ellen! She makes it pretty clear that if we study the sanctuary there are vast truths to be gained. If we looked at things the way you do how could we ever advance from her understanding at all? Every time a person advances in truth the past truths take on new meanings and become clearer. Ellen didn’t see everything, but what she did see will make sense when understanding truth clearer. Scott, I have not read where Sister White wrote - I no longer believe the things God initially revealed to me. Neither have you quoted her.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: scott]
#101487
08/11/08 05:46 PM
08/11/08 05:46 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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By scott: Your point that the law cannot pardon is simply because the law only told us what righteousness is. In the ceremonial system we have symbols of forgiveness and salvation, but it wasn’t until Jesus came that we saw what God is really like. What the law couldn’t do, express God’s character perfectly, Jesus did by coming in the flesh.
By MM: Thus, the law is not a perfect or complete reflection of the character of God, right? It lacks certain things, namely, the legal right to be merciful, to pardon, and the power to save sinners. Not that the law lacks “the legal right to be merciful”, but that the law lacks the revelation of God’s mercy. By MM: On the flip side, though, it does reflect the character of God in that it condemns sinners to death. This offends me that you could say such things about God after Jesus spent so much time talking about God’s acceptance and revealing His love. "From the beginning it has been Satan’s studied plan to cause men to forget God, that he might secure them to himself. Hence he has sought to misrepresent the character of God, to lead men to cherish a false conception of Him. The Creator has been presented to their minds as clothed with the attributes of the prince of evil himself,–as arbitrary, severe, and unforgiving,–that He might be feared, shunned, and even hated by men. Satan hoped to so confuse the minds of those whom he had deceived that they would put God out of their knowledge." Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 738; In Heavenly Places, 8; Review and Herald February 15, 1912 Sinners condemn themselves to death and God cries like a mother morns over her dead child! Scott, do you agree that the law condemns sinners to death?
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#101492
08/11/08 06:25 PM
08/11/08 06:25 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I should have said, "Welcome back!" on my other post. Welcome back. Scott, I have not read where Sister White wrote - I no longer believe the things God initially revealed to me. Neither have you quoted her. MM, I have not read where Scott wrote - Ellen White came to the point where she no longer believed the things God initially revealed to her. Neither have you quoted him.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Tom]
#101493
08/11/08 06:29 PM
08/11/08 06:29 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding your question as to whether God condemns sinners, the following speaks to this: The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 541, emphasis mine)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: scott]
#101533
08/13/08 02:41 PM
08/13/08 02:41 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Thank you, Tom, for welcoming me back. The Lord truly blessed in the youth tent at campmeeting in the maritime province of Nova Scotia where I was a speaker. But it's good to be back home. I very much missed my "most lovely". A cool thing happened while there: a rep from R&H asked me to write a devotional book for youth and young adults. For convenience I am reposting the following: Post #100897
Mountain Man: Scott, I very much appreciate you answering my question. Thank you. Do you think Ellen White is partly to blame for SDAs believing in the atonement the way most do? For example, she wrote:
“By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors.” (6BC 1095)
“In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man’s sin.” (CON 22)
“Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man’s stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.” (1SM 340)
The NC relied on Jesus paying our sin debt of death on the cross. Law and justice, as established by God Himself, demands death for sin. Jesus' death was required to preserve the honor and integrity of God's law. In so dying, God demonstrated the truth about His law and love. He also thereby safeguarded redeemed and unfallen beings against rebelling in the future.
Is this how you see it, too?
Scott: Hi MM,
I don’t see that Ellen has any blame for anything. She came from a Methodist background with a very legal view of the atonement and justice. She wasn’t instantly changed, but over the years saw things that are diametrically opposed to her view. Ellen believed in penal atonement. But she also says many things that do not fit that view. Abraham believed in having multiple wives, but that doesn’t mean He was not called of God.
If you read the 1858 version of the Great Controversy you will find her picture of God much harsher than in the 1905 version after 5 editions. Her view of God softened and she moved from a strictly penal view to a more natural view of the destruction of the wicked.
Why would we assume that the minute God calls a prophet that the person has every theological misunderstanding straightened out immediately? Ellen was a pork eating Sunday keeper when God called her. It took her years to change her mind and her habits. And I think that she is one of the biggest blessings to the church simply because we got to see the prophetic gift in progress for over 60 years and now we know how all the prophets were changed by their message.
Ellen’s message dynamically changed her, but our fundamentalist attitude toward the prophets doesn’t allow for her to grow. If she saw something clearer 10 years after she commented on it last and she changed her position everyone cried, “False prophet”. Remember that she said that she was not infallible. That simply means that she made mistakes!
Does your theology allow her to make mistakes or change her mind as things grew clearer? If not you might want to consider rethinking your position. Scott wrote - "If you read the 1858 version of the Great Controversy you will find her picture of God much harsher than in the 1905 version after 5 editions. Her view of God softened and she moved from a strictly penal view to a more natural view of the destruction of the wicked." Do you agree with him?
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Tom]
#101534
08/13/08 02:44 PM
08/13/08 02:44 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Regarding your question as to whether God condemns sinners, the following speaks to this: The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 541, emphasis mine) Tom, my question was - "Scott, do you agree that the law condemns sinners to death?" What thinkest thou?
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#101548
08/13/08 06:01 PM
08/13/08 06:01 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Scott wrote - "If you read the 1858 version of the Great Controversy you will find her picture of God much harsher than in the 1905 version after 5 editions. Her view of God softened and she moved from a strictly penal view to a more natural view of the destruction of the wicked."
Do you agree with him? I would say that Ellen White's views matured over time, and that, as any growing Christian, she came to know and understand God, and the Plan of Salvation, better as she grew older, and this fact is reflected in her writings.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Tom]
#101549
08/13/08 06:04 PM
08/13/08 06:04 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old T:Regarding your question as to whether God condemns sinners, the following speaks to this:
Old M:The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 541, emphasis mine)
M:Tom, my question was - "Scott, do you agree that the law condemns sinners to death?" What thinkest thou?
T:Yes, in the same sense that God does. That is, the destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice; their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves. This choice is recognized by God, and the law, and thus God (or the law) condemns them. Basically they are choosing sin, which results in death, which both God and the law recognize as being the case.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#101553
08/13/08 06:44 PM
08/13/08 06:44 PM
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Regarding your question as to whether God condemns sinners, the following speaks to this: The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 541, emphasis mine) Tom, my question was - "Scott, do you agree that the law condemns sinners to death?" What thinkest thou? Hi MM, Welcome back!!!! Glad you had so much success with the youth! To answer your question yes or no would not do justice to either the question or the answer because you might hear what I'm not saying. Let’s define some thoughts about the law and see where we agree: The principle of the law is love for God and love for our fellow man. Would you agree? The law is a transcript of God's character! Would you agree with that? A transcript is simply a written description of God's character. Therefore the law is summed up in "be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect". The true law, therefore, is the perfect standard of righteousness (i.e. God's character of love) Would you agree with this so far? scott
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