Thanks for the clarification Richard.

It looks to me that you may be operating from a model that looks like this:

a.God decides who will be in each resurrection
b. God treats the people of each resurrection differently

Clearly a) is true, but I don't think b) is. I agree with the model that Scott presented.

I think what destroys the wicked is that they, by refusing to respond to God's overtures through the Holy Spirit, so damage their own character that God's mere presence becomes to them a consuming fire. God treats them just as well as the righteous, but they hate God, they hate His principles, and being around God, or anyone like Him, they find to be extremely undesirable.

So I see the second death as being that which is the result of people whose minds have been warped by sin coming in contact with the God who is love, and having Him fully revealed to them. The reason this revelation destroys them is because a full revelation of God means a full revelation of self.

What death do the righteous suffer? Only the 1st, as only the wicked will suffer the 2nd Death. So, if He was the First Fruit of the righteous, and the death the righteous suffer is the 1st Death, then it seems clear that is the death that He suffered as well.

So if Christ bore the punishment for our sin is the punishment for sin a broken heart as a result of being separated from God?

Guiltless, He bore the punishment of the guilty. {AG 172.3}

Yes, that is the premise that my friend was leaning to, that the wicked are destroyed by God's mere presence which becomes to them a all consuming fire or a lake of fire, but Revelation 20 says 'lake of burning sulphur'.

Actually, the righteous do suffer a permanent kind of death. The difference is that the righteous experience the permanent death before probation closes, and the wicked after.

Their separation commences before Satan rallies them, so standing in God's presence doesn't destroy them directly: it is written that fire comes down both to destroy the wicked and....cleanse the earth! Malachi states that the redeemed shall walk on the ashes of the wicked.

Yes, that is the premise that my friend was leaning to, that the wicked are destroyed by God's mere presence which becomes to them a all consuming fire or a lake of fire, but Revelation 20 says 'lake of burning sulphur'.....


Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

No. The punishment for sin, or consequences if you prefer, is the inability to coexist with God, the source of life. Those who have sin cannot have God simultaneously.

The lack of God, or separation if you prefer, causes the broken heart, not the other way around. All men, including Jesus, have been separated from God at one time or another. The big difference is that Jesus felt it keenly, while most of us don't mind.

Now, my turn for a question. Do you believe that the AG 172.3 statement is true?

Did Jesus bear the punishment of the guilty?

By Colin: Na, God doesn't treat the lost differently in that day - as regards his attitude, since it is they who are different - they have treated him differently than the righteous treated God. It's akin to thinking that the last generation of saints, who experience the "measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Eph 4:13 RSV), are saved in a different way to previous generations of saints. God is graceous also, so judgement - settled once probation is closed! - is based on grace: those who avail themselves of Christ's grace by the faith of Jesus shall be judged according to God's graceous promise of redemption in Jesus (Rom 3:24); those who reject Christ's grace by unbelief are condemned already (John 3:18).

Having placed themselves outside of grace, justice remains, and is seen in the end - and accepted by all...even Satan himself, but God isn't different toward the lost, since they were included in Christ's graceous redemption of his life and death - which they spurned. Their ultimate separation from God doesn't kill them, but is self-selected mental torture - aided by shock! Their separation commences before Satan rallies them, so standing in God's presence doesn't destroy them directly: it is written that fire comes down both to destroy the wicked and....cleanse the earth! Malachi states that the redeemed shall walk on the ashes of the wicked.

God doesn't treat the wicked differently from Richard and my point of view.