Amen Tammy,
It is a dangerous thing to take a stand against Papal authority when it comes to the doctrine of the atonement.

Best check with the clergy!!!

scott

Not in the case of a magnesium fire. Regardless of what you believe, you will get burned.

The same thing with God. Regardless of what you believe, He is a consuming fire to sin.

I don't know what to say Arnold, aside from repeating what I wrote earlier. What people believe is fuel for the fire, to use your analogy.

I'd be interested in your response to the points I made.

Obviously, you don't understand my analogy. People's beliefs as fuel for the fire is not part of my analogy. If that's what you want to talk about, that would be your hand in my analogy.

The "belief" in my analogy, is one's belief as to the consequences of putting one's hand in a magnesium fire. In that case, regardless of your belief, a burn is what you will get.

That represents the belief that the consequences of sin are somehow linked to what you believe they will be. E.g. if you believe that sin should be ignored, your judgment of the matter should have some effect on what God will actually do when the time comes. It doesn't.

You took me out of context.

Another possibility could be that I understood it, but didn't agree with it.



This is what I disagreed with.



I understood this. However, in regards to the wicked, what one believes is critical, so the analogy, IMO, doesn't work well.



I didn't take you out of context. I just didn't think your analogy worked well. Your idea is that what someone believes is immaterial. What will happen is what will happen regardless. However, I believe that what happens is predicated precisely by what one believes. The exclusion of the wicked from heaven is "voluntary." It is something they choose, because of what they believe.

I'd still be interested in your response to the points I made. In particular, the points related to DA 764 would be good to comment on, if you don't wish to respond to each point.

Either you understand my analogy better than I do, or I understand my analogy better than you do. What I quoted above is so NOT what I'm talking about.

It's very simple, if you are willing to hear what I am saying, rather than what you would really like me to say. Mix extremely high heat with flesh, and the flesh will burn. Your opinion about it, or anyone else's, is immaterial. Period. Do not put into it what I am not saying, then you will understand it better.

Now, would you like to know how my analogy explains what I'm talking about, or would you like to continue to say that my analogy is not what YOU are talking about?

Perhaps you believe that the sinner's opinion on how sin should be addressed determines how things turn out. If so, go ahead and defend the position; we can discuss it. But if you think my analogy in any way addressed the topic of why the lost are lost, you are mistaken. It's that simple.


If you really want to put that in the analogy, that would be the fool voluntarily putting his hand in the fire. His burn would be his voluntary choice, because he voluntarily put his hand in the fire.

Don't get caught up in the phrase "2nd Death." There are only 2 deaths, so anything that is not the 1st is the 2nd, and vice versa.

The wages of sin is death. The soul that sins will die. One fundamental question is: Which death are we talking about here?

Going to the SOP, we find these:
What is the "wrath of God against transgression"? What is the "divine justice" that Christ suffered? Was she talking about the 1st death or 2nd? Or something else?


Actually, it is more glorious. Consider this (thanks to a friend who supplied the insight).


There is a death that includes only the body, and there is a different kind of death that includes the soul. What Jesus experienced included the soul.

Is that blasphemy? No. It is just the fact that the soul that sins shall die. True, Jesus did not sin. But Jesus was made sin for us, He took upon Himself all of our sins. And as we saw from DA 686, He suffered the consequences of our sin - the death of the soul.

Why is that more glorious? I'll continue next time.

Arnold, this is exactly what I said! Look:

Me: "Your idea is that what someone believes is immaterial. What will happen is what will happen regardless."

You: "Mix extremely high heat with flesh, and the flesh will burn. Your opinion about it, or anyone else's, is immaterial."

How is this not saying the same thing? In what way do you think I'm not hearing what you're saying?

Arnold, please take a look at my post #101293 and respond to the points I made there.

I will get back to that. I just want to straighten this out first.


Actually, to be more accurate, you are hearing more than I am saying. You said:
You are talking about our beliefs being part of the reason, if not the only reason, why the lost are lost. But the fact is that I am not talking about that.

Here's what I'm talking about: Put your hand in a magnesium fire and you will get burned, no matter what your opinion about it is. Period.

Do you agree with me on that? Or do you hold that your beliefs will somehow keep your flesh from burning?

Let me put the complete paragraph as I originally wrote it for reference:

1) The first part of Romans 6 tells us that we must die in the likeness of Christ's death. The death that Paul was saying we must all experience is death to sin. Should our death to sin be a permanent death, or temporary? Most, if not all, of us here would agree that we must die to sin permanently. That is the likeness of Christ's death.

2) The promise is that all who die in the likeness of Christ's death will be raised in the likeness of His resurrection. Jesus died as the worst of all sinners, having taken humanity's sins upon Himself. But He took that sin into the permanent death, nevermore to return. When He came back, it was without sin. So with us, we die to sin permanently, then we are raised to walk in newness of life, the new life of faith, submission, and obedience to God. We leave that sin behind forever.

3) Raising one from the 1st death is easy compared to raising one from the 2nd death. Several prophets and apostles did it. But Jesus was raised from the 2nd death, being raised without the shackles of sin. This resurrection only God does. This is what He promised to do for us in Romans 6.

4) The 2nd death is the only death that sufficiently shows God's hatred for sin. It is not good enough for Him to put sin aside temporarily. The way God will deal with sin is to eradicate it permanently, never to return. That's His promise. Sin will not arise a 2nd time.

5) God loved Jesus, there is no question there. But because Jesus took upon Himself our sin, He was subject to God's wrath and died the 2nd death. That reveals to us, like nothing else, that God hates sin with a perfect hatred. But if you cling to it, even if He loves you as He loves His Son, you will die permanently. In one act, God shows us His hatred of sin as He shows us His love for all, including the lost, by taking the death we deserve.