Yes, that is interesting. I think you have a point there.

But then, Jesus will literally come here, and He will literally raise the dead, and He will literally make a New Earth, yes?

This is beyond me, I don't understand terms such as these...Of course I believe that Jesus died for all...and she says, But, I don't understand what this all has to do with which death Jesus died. Why make it so complex and complicated? We have a simple Bible definition of the 2nd Death. I can't, for the life of me, understand how anyone can truly believe that Jesus died the death of the lost person.

Does this sound like the description of those who die the 2nd Death?

I took it to my 'round table' of bible scholars at church and we went over it, and the consensus was that Christ's death was of a eternal nature as far as He could see, because he set aside his divinity and thus if He had sinned, it would have been eternal death for Him (a death with sin that would have destroyed both soul and body in hell). So he faced the same death we do, one which could lead to eternal life or eternal death, and he triumph over what would have been a eternal death if He had sin and extends that victory to us.

This is the way I see it too. We are conceived, born, and steeped in sin our whole lives until we are born again. Our natural birth finds us separated from God believing that God is our enemy. We have a selfish nature and until we meet God and surrender to His love we can no more stop sinning that we can grow wings and fly. Even the things men do that are perceived as good have a selfish motive and are sin. Without God’s intervention we would perish for eternity having spent our whole life captive to sin and Satan.

When Jesus was born He was not born separate from the Father. He was born “born again” full of the Holy Spirit and in full communication with the Father. So how can the NT tell us that He was born like us? How can Christ claim to have experience our suffering and how can He claim to comfort us and know our plight? How can He affiliate with men if He was born above them, in a higher spiritual state, and never experienced being separated from God?

My answer is Gethsemane and the Cross! Christ experienced the severing of His last link with heaven that night before the cross. What was His only hold on heaven, His only advantage over us during His life, the only thing that made Him different than a mere man? A relationship of love and trust with the Father and living in constant communication and in the presence of God.

Sin so slowly separated man from God that we don’t even notice the heart break. Like putting a frog in a pot full of cold water and turning on a slow flame. The frog adjusts to the water until boiled to death. Jesus, OTOH, experienced the same separation from the Father, which we have lived with since our conception, the night of His crucifixion, thus completing His human experience. He bore our sorrow and our grief in every way so that we know we have a compassionate High Priest who can succor us and comfort us and bring us back to the Father. Jesus knows what it is like to be abandoned to the insanity of sinners with no hope of physical rescue. This is where I see as Him tasting eternal death. Not experiencing the eternity of the death, but experiencing the enormity of emotions not being able to see through the veil of death, no hope for rescue, no comforting from Father, no communications, but depending only on the relationship of trust build during a life time of communion with the Father. Jesus knew His Father’s love and He put His trust in that love, never putting His trust in what was happening right then and there.

Only those who know God intimately and love and trust who He is will have an assurance of salvation. But don’t think Satan won’t do everything to get you to believe you are alone and abandoned of God. God was right there with His Son every second, but Jesus had placed Himself in the hands of sinners and between the cries of the insane men and the demons crawling all over Him God’s presence was shut out in every physical sense. Jesus felt totally alone, but knew, from a lifetime relationship with the Father, that He could commend the final outcome to His trusted Father. What ever happened; Jesus knew that His Father loved Him. And we too have, through Jesus, that same assurance.

scott

Arnold, regarding #101305, you are insisting "I am not talking about that." I know you weren't. I never said you were. I was. I was expressing *my* opinion. I understood that my opinion was different than yours. I wasn't saying my opinion was yours. I never disagreed with the idea that if one puts one's hand in a fire that it will get burned regardless of one's beliefs.

I don't understand where whatever misunderstanding you think there is here took place. I hope this is settled and we can discuss post #101293.

I agree, Tammy!

Jesus never suffered the emotion of the eternally lost because He knew His Father’s love. His life was so tied to the Father that He accepted whatever fate would come because of His knowledge of God’s goodness. Jesus couldn’t see through the portal of death. He had no physical evidence that He would be rescued or resurrected. He only had his past fellowship with the Father to get Him through. He had an intimate loving trust for His Father. That is what got Jesus through! He had a relationship with the Father and He loved goodness and hated the evil around Him. Jesus would not join the evil even to save His life. He would not call out for an angelic rescue because He knew he must give a full demonstration of God’s love so that the hardest to convince, among men, would have no excuse.

Jesus loved sinners and stayed all the way to the end because He could do nothing else. He was willing to die before He was willing to kill others so that He could live. Isn’t this the exact opposite of selfishness and the survival of the fittest? Men kill others so that they can live, but God gives His live so that others might live.

scott

Hi Arnold,

Jesus’ literal 2nd coming is one of the most common themes of the NT. If, OTOH, it was only mentioned once or twice in the Revelation I probably wouldn’t believe it was literal.

We have lots of different spiritual fires burning in the Bible, but we insist that the one in the prophetic book of Revelation is literal.

scott

But it's not. That's the misunderstanding.

I think He did suffer it. What got Him through the experience was His knowledge of His Father's love. He chose faith over feelings, but His feelings were those of the lost; all black clouds, with no hope of sun. Many Psalms bring out the despair Christ felt on the cross. To name just 3, 22, 69, 88. They speak of His crying so much that He ran out of tears. His was a one-of-a-kind suffering.

There is comfort for us in His suffering. When sin causes pain in our lives, such as taking a loved one away, we can feel so alone, that there is no one who understands our pain and loneliness; but there is One! We can sojourn to the garden, or to the cross, with Him. He had to tread the path alone, so that we can be comforted.

Ok! Good! We are in agreement. Do you agree with post 101293 as well?