Hold on, Scott. I need some clarification.

You said you agree with AG 172.3.
In fact, you said, "Yes! He did it at the cross and all during His life." Later, you added, "The punishment for sin is eternal separation from God..."

So, did Jesus suffer the punishment of the guilty?

Hi Arnold,

If the punishment is a natural consequence of sin then the statement makes sense. Jesus bore the consequences of our sin i.e. incarnation into mortality and death! OTOH, if the punishment is the death sentence issued from God’s court of law then the whole thought is outrageous.

I agree with the statement in the first sense. And “Yes! He did it at the cross and all during His life.” Christ lived out His life in the human predicament. And yes, “the punishment for sin is eternal separation from God,” with the exception of all those saved by Christ’s atonement, at one ment, reconciliation through the revelation of God’s love. Christ tore down the wall of that separated us from the Father and we laid down our defenses and let Him into our lives. Christ did nothing to change God or affect His love for us. Everything He did was to change our minds.

scott

I agree with what Scott said, believe there is an another aspect.



This speaks of how Christ bore the "grief of the ages." I believe something similar happened at the cross. Christ bore the "sin of the ages" in the same sense as He bore the "grief of the ages" when He wept at Lazrus' funeral.

It wasn't simply that the cross demonstrated man's evil heart, what sin does to those who give themselves up to it. It certainly did that, but it did more. It also demonstrated the impact of sin upon the sinner.

I can't even imagine how the God of the universe felt hanging on that cross! How hopeless did mankind look, how violent, how hateful, how depressing! Jesus had no assurance that anyone would even accept His death and reconcile with God. But He would have done it for just one of us.

scott

I don’t know how anyone could believe that what happened to Jesus that weekend was a death sentence issued from God’s court of law. If that were true then those killing Jesus actually were carrying out God’s direct order and God actually hired, or even commanded, the Jewish and Roman thugs to kill His Son.

And if we say that Jesus suffered the second death, in the place of those who are saved, then we have to admit that Jesus wasn’t burned alive by God’s fire for as long as we deserved, burning long enough to meet even the most vial of forgiven sinners, and feeling the pain right down to the last bit of melting flesh. God withdrew His protection and Jesus was turned over to crazed sinners just like the wicked will be in the end when they turn on Satan and then each other in an uncontrollable rage that ends in self destruction!

scott

Did Jesus experience the "eternal separation from God" which you consider as the punishment for sin?

When Adam sinned the consequences were loss of eternal life (mortality) and death. When Jesus incarnate into humanity He took on those liabilities. He didn’t stay dead! He conquered death for all of us. The grave couldn’t hold Him.

The problem we are having is that in order to see my view you have to think outside the penal box. God punishes the unrepentant wicked, but His punishment is not some emotional or physically pain or torture that He inflicts on the unsaved. God’s punishment is letting men have what they chose, giving them what they demand, and actually withdrawing his protections and His sane presence from them. He leaves them in their own collective hands and lets the power, bitterness, anger, and vengeance, the principles they love and live by play out with no calming influence from the Holy Spirit, no conviction of the conscience, no pangs of guilt, nothing to curb their anger and nothing to stop their insane violence. He gives them over to the god they worship and that god is Satan who has convinced them to love evil. Satan has become their God!

Jesus died the death of every man, first and second, because death is death. Jesus died so in that sense He tasted every man’s death and died because every man sinned. The only difference between the first death and the second is that there is no resurrection from the second death. In that sense it was impossible for Jesus to experience. And why should He need too. The people that experience it are not saved. Jesus’ resurrection promised every man, good and evil, a resurrection not just the saved. We are the ones who determine which resurrection we will come up in and we determine that during our life time by our choice to either love good or love evil.

Your question implies that God is the active agent in the punishment of the wicked and that their punishment of a violent death is directed and controlled by God therefore in order for Jesus to take our punishment, the punishment of the saved, He had to die eternally if eternal death was the punishment. On the contrary! Jesus suffered every man’s death, but those who place their trust in God have the promised of eternal life.

In my theology sin is shown to be the destructive power that it is. In your theology sin is an alternate life style that God disapproves of and will kill any one who disagrees with Him. God will not be mocked. He will not continue to support and nurture those intent on destroying all life. He will give them exactly what they ask for. Probation will end. He will stop sending His Spirit, giving them hope, giving them direction, curbing their violence. He will let them alone like they demand and let them become what they will. His pleadings will stop!

scott

I don't think this is true. In the first death, there is no "face to face" encounter with God. That's a big difference.

I wrote this as a reply to tom:

But in thinking about it both the saved and the unsaved have the same face to face encounter with God. The only difference is that the saved love and look forward to His coming, but the lost are so afraid that they call the rocks and trees to fall on them. They die of fear before He ever gets here. They hide from His face.

After the second resurrection they do face God again and listen to His recounting of all the times He tried to save them. As he pleads with them all they feel and hear is their guilt so when Satan comes along and tempts them to shut their ears to God and take their inheritance by force, the holy city, they gladly respond. Thus demonstrating that God's judgment was true and right and that there was nothing He could do for them. If they were resurrected a million time and given a million chances their characters are so damaged that they would respond a million times to Satan and ignore God's pleadings.

Just a thought,

scott

Scott,

After all that, including some assertions about my theology that I guarantee you cannot support with quotes from me, you still did not answer the question. It only needs Yes or No.

Did Jesus experience the "eternal separation from God" which you consider as the punishment for sin?