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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: scott] #101393
08/07/08 09:36 PM
08/07/08 09:36 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
However, I also believe that He sometimes allowed His own divinity to flash through humanity, but never for His own benefit. In any case, He didn't do anything that we cannot do through God's grace.


Isn't this a contradiction? You have:

1.He sometimes allowed His own divinity to flash through humanity.
2.He didn't do anything that we cannot do through God's grace.

We can't do 1, right? (even with God's grace)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: scott] #101394
08/07/08 09:42 PM
08/07/08 09:42 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
While we struggle to overcome our depravity Christ struggled not to tap into His divine powers, but without God supernatural help we would all fail. So Christ didn’t tap into His supernatural divine power to overcome, but was tempted in all ways like we are.


I think Christ was tempted in all points as we are (which implies He took our human nature) and was also tempted in ways that we not (such as keeping to the level of humanity).

I thought of this quote because the statement that it was difficult for Him to keep to the level of His humanity implies (to me) that He had another option, which was to make use of His divinity. So this would mean He could have used His divine powers if He chose to.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tom] #101399
08/08/08 04:48 AM
08/08/08 04:48 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
Isn't this a contradiction? You have:

1.He sometimes allowed His own divinity to flash through humanity.
2.He didn't do anything that we cannot do through God's grace.

We can't do 1, right? (even with God's grace)

By God's grace, His divinity can flash through our humanity. I think that's the most important way we can confess that Christ came in the flesh.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: asygo] #101401
08/08/08 01:16 PM
08/08/08 01:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
What you said was a contradiction, right?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: asygo] #101405
08/08/08 05:17 PM
08/08/08 05:17 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Originally Posted By: asygo
 Originally Posted By: Tom
Isn't this a contradiction? You have:

1.He sometimes allowed His own divinity to flash through humanity.
2.He didn't do anything that we cannot do through God's grace.

We can't do 1, right? (even with God's grace)

By God's grace, His divinity can flash through our humanity. I think that's the most important way we can confess that Christ came in the flesh.


I like that! It requires no divinity on our part other than being a mirror that reflects His love and power!

Good thoughts!

scott

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Tom] #101417
08/08/08 09:48 PM
08/08/08 09:48 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
What you said was a contradiction, right?

No, but I should have been clearer.

1.He sometimes allowed His own divinity to flash through humanity.
2.He didn't do anything that we cannot do through God's grace.


What I meant by "He didn't do..." is that the works He did are not beyond us, if we are conduits of God's grace. Heal the sick, raise the dead, even greatly annoy the wicked by our holiness. We can do all of these things if we allow Him to do all these things through us.

Now, as to how He did these things, we might not be able to do it through the same method. Regardless, the same divine power He manifested in His life is available to us, so we can manifest the same light in our lives.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: scott] #101418
08/08/08 09:50 PM
08/08/08 09:50 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: scott
It requires no divinity on our part other than being a mirror that reflects His love and power!

Right. We partake of His divine nature. That's as divine as we need to be.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: asygo] #101420
08/08/08 10:41 PM
08/08/08 10:41 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Just repeating what I've already pointed out in previous discussions. Christ died the equivalent to the second death on the cross but, because of His innocence, wasn't consumed as the wicked will be.

"Imagine, if possible, the nature and degree of Christ's suffering. This suffering in humanity was to prevent the outpouring of the wrath of God upon those for whom Christ died. Yea; for the church this great sacrifice will be efficacious throughout eternity. Can we compute the amount of her transgressions in figures?--Impossible! Then who can approach to a conception of what Christ endured when standing as surety for his church, in the solemn hour of atonement, when he yielded up his life as a sacrificial offering? Never, never can it be that God will again so manifest his holiness, his spotless purity; the sin that sprung up in heaven and its inconceivably heinous character; his utter hatred of sin, his solemn purpose to punish it, and that in the only one who could bear the strokes in behalf of the sinner, and because of his innocence would not be consumed." {HM, November 1, 1897 par. 5}

Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: Rosangela] #101421
08/08/08 10:59 PM
08/08/08 10:59 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Glad you joined the party. ;\) And thanks for the quote.

This jumped out at me, though it's off-topic: this great sacrifice will be efficacious throughout eternity.

Efficacious throughout eternity. Does that mean that we will be under the "umbrella" of His sacrifice forever? How does this impact the "living without a Mediator" concept? Just thinking through my keyboard.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us... [Re: asygo] #101422
08/08/08 11:15 PM
08/08/08 11:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
No, but I should have been clearer.

1.He sometimes allowed His own divinity to flash through humanity.
2.He didn't do anything that we cannot do through God's grace.

What I meant by "He didn't do... is that the works He did are not beyond us, if we are conduits of God's grace. Heal the sick, raise the dead, even greatly annoy the wicked by our holiness. We can do all of these things if we allow Him to do all these things through us.


You say that Christ sometimes allowed His own divinity to flash through humanity, and Christ did nothing we cannot do by God's grace. Given this (allowing His own divinity to flash through humanity) is not a contradiction, either this is something Christ didn't do, or it's something we can do. But you just said He did it, so the only possibility is that it is something we can do too. But clearly we cannot allow our own divinity to flash through our humanity. So if Christ did nothing different than we can do, it was not His own divinity that flashed through His humanity, but God's. Unless you were thinking that Christ's divinity is the same as God's, so you used the term "His own divinity" interchangeably with "God's divinity". Is this what you had in mind?

 Quote:
Now, as to how He did these things, we might not be able to do it through the same method.


How would the method be different?

 Quote:
Regardless, the same divine power He manifested in His life is available to us, so we can manifest the same light in our lives.


I agree with this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Page 16 of 36 1 2 14 15 16 17 18 35 36

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