Good food for though, Arnold! I’m going to have to think about that one for awhile!

scott

1.Christus Victor has nothing to do with the idea that God's glory will destroy the wicked.

2.The following does, however:





Looked at more carefully, these passages not only declare the fact that this is how thw wicked will be destroyed, but explain why this is the case, and why it's important that this be understood.



It is the sinner who is forgiven. Christ bore our condemnation and punishment so *we* may be forgiven.



As Peter put it, Christ died to "bring us to God," which is just what we needed.




I agree completely with your last sentence. Another way of putting this is that the law recognizes the underlying reality; it doesn't create reality, but reflects it. Given the law reflects God's mind, let's consider that a moment. You say that God condemns sin, and so He does. Why? Because God is love. God loves us. and sin destroys us, so God naturally condemns sin.

If we would understand the mind of God in relation to how He thinks of and relates to sin and sinners, we have but to look at the life of Christ. For example, in His treatment of the woman caught in adultery, we see how God forgives the sinner while condemning the sin. The paralytic is another good example of this.



Or else! Because God is big and powerful, and He will destroy you if you don't! This is one way of looking at things. Another is that God is seeking to save us from the ravages of sin.

If you look at the context of Rom. 12, from which this is quoted, you will see that the idea of vengeance being spoken of is to love your enemy. This is indeed how God gets His vengeance. The glory of Him, *who is love*, will destroy the wicked. What is God's glory? His character. The same thing that gives life to the righteous will destroy the wicked.

This is an interesting thought!

Where? Did Jesus teach it? It seems to me it didn't even exist as a concept until Calvin. Do you know of anyone enunciating the thought before him? (specifically the idea that Christ had to die in order for God to be able to legally pardon us).

Hey Arnold,

Do you believe that Christ contained His divine powers while in the flesh?

The reason I ask is because I've always though of Him laying them down knowing that He could have them anytime He asked. But in essence He never tapped in even once to His divine powers. Doing so would have destroyed His mission to empathize and relate to humanity. Had He used His powers think of all the statements in the Bible we would question. Like "He was tempted in all ways like we are" or "He understands our sorrow and suffering".

It would be hard for me to understand Christ being a man yet full of all knowledge, present everywhere, and all powerful. That idea almost makes His human experience a sham. Imagine Jesus down here hanging on the cross, yet at the same time up in heaven sipping lemonade.

scott

It's a difficult subject, isn't it Scott? I believe Christ laid aside His powers in the sense that He never made use of them, but I believe He could have had He so chosen, without asking first.

There's an SOP statement that says something to the effect that it was as difficult for Christ to not use His divine powers as our temptations are for us. I can't remember it well enough to hunt for it, but I know Arnold is familiar with it, so maybe he can produce it. It would interesting to consider.

I believe Jesus had his divine powers in Himself, but kept them veiled in humanity for the most part. However, I also believe that He sometimes allowed His own divinity to flash through humanity, but never for His own benefit. In any case, He didn't do anything that we cannot do through God's grace.

Anyway, here's the quote, I believe:
This book, focusing on Christ's wilderness temptations, is very revealing. It was significant in shaping critical aspects of my non-orthodoxy.

These are difficult things to think about, Tom! It seems like they blow my pumpkin (as a close friend of mine says) when I spend too much time on them. I must not be intelligent enough to put together those pieces.

Thanks Arnold,

I appreciate new thoughts. Most of the time people simply regurgitate what they've been taught with little thought other than defending their own paradigm. You are on new ground for me. I’m interested in more! Is there a thread where this is discussed or should one be started?

scott

Good point about the thread. We have gone .

I'm not sure if there's already one on this. Perhaps someone else knows? If not, let's make one.

This statement says to me that it was impossible for Christ to “keep the level of (His) humanity” because it is impossible for us to rise above our depravation and overcome our own natures. This only happens through a supernatural encounter with God and a highly developed relationship of trust and love. Thus this statement tells me that Jesus was just as dependant on God as we are to overcome.

While we struggle to overcome our depravity Christ struggled not to tap into His divine powers, but without God supernatural help we would all fail. So Christ didn’t tap into His supernatural divine power to overcome, but was tempted in all ways like we are.

What do you think?

scott