Thanks Rosangela. Your last post is what I was wanting to get at.

What I think happens is the wicked cannot handle the revelation of their sins. That is what destroys them. EGW says that the light of the glory of God destroys the wicked. She also says that fire destroys them. She also says that the light of the glory of God gives life to the righteous. Putting this altogether, it's clear that that which consumes the wicked cannot be literal fire.

Also such an interpretation would not make sense in context. She says that Christ was not consumed because of His innocence. If one were consumed by literal fire, being innocent wouldn't help. Many innocent people have been consumed by fire. However if being consumed has to do with the conscience, then not being consumed because of one's innocence makes perfect sense.

It seems to me that making Christ too human has the same problems as making Him too divine. He was unique, but suffered like us in every way. He was not born lost believing God to be His enemy, but born "born again" with a close connection to the Father. How many of us can say that? He never experienced our lost-ness from birth, nor the final lost-ness of the unrepentant wicked, until the cross.

Just as we are not exactly like Him in His divinity, but taste His divinity in dwelling with His Spirit, so He was not exactly like us in our humanity, but tasted our death and suffered our dilemma. In the ways that are important and necessary for our comfort and salvation Jesus was exactly like us. In other ways His divinity was a liability in that His choices were much different than ours.

scott

This nails if for me, Tom! The literal flames that are cast down on the earth to melt it into the earth made new are said to devour the stubble. Stubble is not alive, but what is left after the harvest (judgment). The judgment finishes with a great battle that ends in the destruction of the wicked. This is depicted as a symbolic fire and I think that fire is the complete and unaltered truth about every man. Just like it was for Jesus at the cross, it is the faith in God’s graciousness that keeps the righteous safe and prepares them for translation. It is intimately knowing God!

But for the wicked that same revelation of truth causes so much mental anguish that they become dangerous animals in their fervor to hide from God’s consuming fire. Murder, suicide, and the heart stopping from fear are the lot of the wicked when God shows up. But, OTOH, the righteous have already faced this fire, know God’s love, and long to be healed. They trust Him.

scott

This is a good summary of my view at this point. While the figurative fire is certainly true, and will probably cause the most pain, I do not discount the possibility of a literal fire, especially in light of the SOP describing it as literal.

I think there will be a literal fire, but for cleansing, not punishment (which would be torture).

Obviously, Jesus didn't suffer the literal fire. But did He suffer the figurative fire? If so, was it just a natural consequence of what His condition, or was it something imposed on Him?

Yes, He suffered figurative fire. What He suffered was the natural consequence of that which was imposed upon Him, as well as that which He willingly took upon Himself.

What was imposed?



What did He willingly take upon Him? Our sins. How did this work? I believe it was similar to this:



Christ suffered both as victim (one sinned against unjustly) and sinner (He was numbered among the transgressors). This last part is more difficult to understand. That Christ suffered as a victim, a willing victim, is easy to see. How our iniquity was laid upon Him is more difficult to see. I think it was by way of empathy, along the lines detailed in the DA quote cited above. As the "weight of the grief of the ages" at Lazarus' funeral, so the "weight of the sins of the ages" was upon Him on the cross.

Hebrews says that Jesus was compassionate to our suffering. This wasn’t some passing feeling of empathy! It was really unconditional agape love that He had for the suffering children of Adam. The weight of our predicament is like we feel when our children are suffering because of the choices they made. I remember when my oldest daughter rebelled, left home, went to work in a bar, and started on a really bad journey. Oh, how my wife and I suffered and prayed for her. It broke our heart!

She is now the leader of the children’s division in our local church so we have a happy ending, but Jesus, looking on humanity, wept for our misunderstandings that would keep us from accepting His offering. The weight of the world was upon Him and it was His infinite love for us that caused His emotional and mental pain.

scott

Whose victim? If the figurative fire is a consequence of being incongruent with God's character, how can Jesus - God's express image - suffer it?

Sin is just as dangerous to the innocent as it is to the guilty. Sin is selfishness! Sinners are dangerous. Selfish people victimize others. Jesus suffered the consequences of God not intervening and letting sin play out. Jesus was the victim of sin! God simply didn't rescue Him as He had during His whole life.

scott