Hi Tom,

This obviously isn’t looking out of the tomb, but looking in. Once in the tomb we can’t see anything. To me it simply means that there was no physical, emotional, or spiritual assurance from God other than an already developed relationship. The Father was simply silent and didn’t break through the blanket of sin and sinners that were screaming death in Jesus’ ear. All Jesus could see in front of Him was death, but OTOH, He knew and trusted the Father to fulfill His promise of a resurrection.

Jesus had already told His disciples that He would raise again the third day! There is no way that Jesus lost trust in the Father’s love so to say He felt what the unsaved wicked feel at death is impossible. I have to agree with Tammy that Jesus experienced more of what the righteous feel who have tasted the grave with no physical help from God, no special expression of assurance, nothing to stand on, but what they have already learned in the past. Think of the martyrs who didn't receive help from God.

God’s displeasure toward sin is expressed in His wrath which, according to Romans 1, is God withdrawing His protection and allowing the dangers of sin to take their natural course. Jesus placed Himself into the hands of His enemies with no hope of rescue. How does God treat His enemies? Look at Jesus! What is God concerned about when His own reputation and existence are threatened? Listen to Jesus assure the thief hanging by His side. Listen to Him tell John to take care of His mother. Listen to Him ask the Father to forgive those who crucified.

I would say that Jesus’ display of displeasure against sin was revealed in His love expressed towards humanity as He suffered the destiny of every man. His compassion towards us was His expression of displeasure and His anguish was in our plight and our ignorance and our rejection of the truth. He was overwhelmed by our predicament to the point of death like we would be if our own child was drowning and all we could do is drown with them because they refused to accept our help and we refused to leave them alone.

scott

Scott,

You are completely disregarding what the text says. God made Christ to be sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. He became "a curse for us" (Gal. 3:13). He was made sin for us that we might become righteous "in Him" - not in ourselves. Our sins were imputed to Him, so that righteousness might be imputed to us. In the same way that righteousness is not intrinsic to us but is credited to us, our sins weren't intrinsic to Christ but were credited to Him.
"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them" (v. 19), but imputing their trespasses, instead, to Christ, as v. 21 says.

How could the law not condemn sin? The law is a transcript of the character of God. Therefore, what the law condemns is just what the character of God condemns. And when God manifests His condemnation of sin, the whole weight of guilt is felt by him upon whom that sin is.
Now, God condemns sin for two reasons - because sin brings suffering to His creatures, and because sin is the antithesis of His own nature; sin is repulsive to Him.

Right!



Ok, we'll leave the law out of things, and say God didn't condemn sin because of personal reasons (because sin is the antithesis of His nature, or because it is repulsive to Him), that He just condemns it for the first reason, because of the suffering it brings. Does anything change? I.e., Would sin be OK? Would sinners be able to live eternally, in peaceful coexistence with God and their fellows?

Of course not. But what is the point of this question?

The point is that the problem that sinners face is not an arbitrary one (i.e., due to discretionary decision) imposed upon them by God, but due to sin. Therefore the solution is to save sinners from sin. It is sin they need saving from, not from an arbitrary action of God (such as condemning sin for personal reasons).

But Tom, remember our discussion about God isolated every sinner from everyone else? Didn't we agree that things are the way they are, not because there was no other way, but because this is the way God chose them to be? IOW, His discretionary decision does come into play.

I don't know what you are referring to, Arnold.

Certainly God's discretionary decisions comes into play in certain circumstances; for example, God chose to create sentient beings. But I don't believe the destruction of the wicked is due to a discretionary decision on the part of God, but rather, it is due to the decisions of the wicked themselves.

Read post 101340 and 101347. You said, "I would say the extermination of sinners is based on God's choice to allow His creatures to exercise free will." God could have allowed sinners to stay alive forever, but He chose another way. And that choice by God, coupled with the sinner's choice to be incongruent with God, is why the wicked will be destroyed.

We agreed that God could not allow the wicked to stay alive, because that would be contrary to His character. So He could have allowed sinners to stay alive forever in the same sense that He could sin or lie. The wicked die because of their own choice, not because of a discretionary decision on God's part.