I mostly agree with this. The disagreement is that the "old man" includes what you suggest, in my view, but is not limited to that. (I'll discuss this in more detail below)



I disagree with this. Of course, the first part of the sentence is true, but the second part isn't. Jesus said for us to take up our cross and *follow* Him. If He had nothing to crucify, then we have nothing to follow. Please don't forget that Christ bore our sins in fallen flesh His whole life. The Spirit of Prophecy says that it was our sins He was bearing that made His temptations in the wilderness so difficult.



It seems to me that the old man includes our memories, and as such, does not die the moment of rebirth. I've heard it said that every morning the old man reappears in a new suit. Also our sinful propensities remain to tempt us. They are not instantly gone. For example, many converted smokers or alcoholics still feel the urge to smoke or drink. The sinful propensity is dead only so far as the temptations which come from these propensities are denied, or crucified, to use your term. This crucification is not need just once, when one is born again.



Could you clarify this please? I understand the sentence beginning with "At birth," but the following two sentences are not clear to me.



I agree with this, but don't think it goes far enough. Born again believers also retain their memories, and these memories also have an impact on one, contributing to temptations.

Justification cannot occur if a person retains even the least offensive cultivated sinful trait of character. To renounce self, to crucify the old man, people must first see their cultivated sinful traits of character in light of the cross; then they must repent of them; then they must receive the divinely implanted mind of the new man, the righteous attributes of God's character; then they must choose daily to abide in Jesus, to grow in grace, to partake of the divine nature.

Although they are born again morally complete in Christ (perfect, sinless, without spot or blame) they are not, however, born again morally mature, as if they have no more room to grow in grace or to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. In the same way Jesus grew and matured from childhood to manhood, so too they will grow and mature (so long as they continually choose to abide in Jesus). Like Jesus, they begin perfect (with all of the righteous attributes of God's character; but they are babes, immature) and they become perfect (they cultivate sinless traits of character, perfecting holiness, which continues throughout eternity).

Believers begin the process of sanctification (growing and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit) the instant they receive the gift of justification. They retain the glorious benefits of justification by perfecting holiness, by daily advancing from one stage of perfection to another. It has nothing to do with becoming less and less sinful. And, it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit gradually, gingerly, gently making them aware of their sins of ignorance, their mental imperfections, as I like to call them (e.g. not knowing the truth about Sabbath-keeping as opposed to supposedly not knowing it is a sin to be impatient with little Johnny when he keeps asking "annoying" questions).

6BC 1072
Many commit the error of trying to define minutely the fine points of distinction between justification and sanctification. Into the definitions of these two terms they often bring their own ideas and speculations. Why try to be more minute than is Inspiration on the vital question of righteousness by faith? Why try to work out every minute point, as if the salvation of the soul depended upon all having exactly your understanding of this matter? All cannot see in the same line of vision (MS 21, 1891). {6BC 1072.4}

FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

1SM 213
There is no safety nor repose nor justification in transgression of the law. Man cannot hope to stand innocent before God, and at peace with Him through the merits of Christ, while he continues in sin. He must cease to transgress, and become loyal and true. As the sinner looks into the great moral looking glass, he sees his defects of character. He sees himself just as he is, spotted, defiled, and condemned. But he knows that the law cannot in any way remove the guilt or pardon the transgressor. He must go farther than this. The law is but the schoolmaster to bring him to Christ. He must look to his sin-bearing Saviour. And as Christ is revealed to him upon the cross of Calvary, dying beneath the weight of the sins of the whole world, the Holy Spirit shows him the attitude of God to all who repent of their transgressions. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). {1SM 213.2}

Yes, of course, Jesus was born with the sins of the world upon Him, within His sinful flesh. And, yes, His sinful flesh warred against Him in the same way and for the reasons it wars against born again believers. What I meant above is Jesus never had to confess or crucify a sinful trait of character He Himself cultivated. Therefore, He never developed the propensities associated with cultivating sinful traits of character. Instead, He was born with the propensities associated with inheriting sinful flesh, which is an altogether different type or source of internal foe (tendency, propensity).


Yes, our memories of sinning in the past remain to haunt and harass us after we crucify the old man and experience the miracle of rebirth. But this fact only serves to convince me they are not part of the old man; otherwise, they would have been blotted out with the death and burial of the old man. You believe we will retain these memories in heaven, right? If so, then wouldn’t that mean we will take our old man to heaven with us?

I believe the source of internal temptation, the origin of latent carnal cravings, such as drinking and smoking, in the case of born again believers who are abiding in Jesus is sinful flesh – not sinful character. As people cultivate sinful traits of character, corresponding tendencies in sinful flesh are fortified and strengthened. It is these very fortified sinful flesh tendencies that account for the fact they are tempted from within with the same intensity, with the same veracity as before they were born again.

The cultivated evil propensities associated with sinful character are eliminated when our old man is crucified. “We need not retain one sinful propensity.” (7BC 943) “The religion of Christ is to take possession of the whole being, and give force and power to all our faculties, renovating, cleansing, and refining.” (SD 100)

But the inherited evil propensities associated with sinful flesh are not eliminated until Jesus returns. “Evil propensities are to be controlled.” (CG 42) “He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him”. (AA 476)


I’m referring to the fact there are two sources of tendencies, propensities – inherited and cultivated. People are born with the one, cultivate the other, and are born again without the latter. Jesus was born with the one, and never cultivated the other.

No, this doesn't follow. If A is a part of B, and we will not take B to us with heaven, it doesn't follow from this that we will not take A to use with heaven, which is how you're reasoning.



The memories also play a part.



Born again without sinful tendencies? Sinful tendencies do not go away in an instant. How could they?

Habits are formed by repeated actions, which are the results of choices made by wills which may or may not be sanctified. When one becomes born again, the will is sanctified, but the habits don't just disappear. One may choose not to do them, but these sinful tendencies remain, being embedded in the nervous system. It takes time to form new neurological pathways. Perhaps you would recharacterize these as "sinful flesh," but I think the heart of the matter is the idea you have that there is no difference between being born again, sanctified, or perfect (unless I've misunderstood you; you do think these are all synonymous, don't you?)



This is true.

Paul says people crucify their old man the moment they experience the miracle of rebirth, which happens before they go to heaven. Their "old man is crucified" the instant they die to self and are born again. They die and are resurrected, as it were, without the old man. The old man remains buried in the grave. Then they rise with the implanted mind and heart of the new man, they rise to newness of life.

Romans
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

So, the question is - What constitutes the old man? What does it consist of, what is it made up of? Paul has this to say about it:

Ephesians
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

He went on to say the following (the contrast between the old man and the new man is insightful):


Sister White took all these things into account when wrote this about the old man (please note she is speaking specifically about newborn babes in Christ, newly baptized members of the Church):

Great responsibility comes to those who have been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Strive to understand the meaning of the words, "Ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." In the new life upon which you have entered, you are pledged to represent the life of Christ. Having put on the new man, "which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him," "put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things, put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful." {SD 300.2}

The old sinful life is dead; the new life entered into with Christ by the pledge of baptism. Practise the virtues of the Saviour's character. Let His wisdom dwell in you richly in all wisdom; "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." . . . The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

She also says the following about the old man:


Between the Bible and the SOP it seems clear to me that the "old man" represents the former life of sinning, the sinful habits and practices people cultivated before they experienced the miracle of rebirth - true, genuine rebirth. Dozens of specific sinful habits and practices were named, each one being confessed and crucified upon being born again.

There is no evidence, however, that their memories were purged or crucified, which leads me to conclude memories are not part of the old man. That which dies with the crucifixion and burial of the old man are the former cultivated sinful habits and practices. Of course, sinful flesh remains to tempt and harass them, but these internal foes should not be confused with the dead and buried old man. Sinful flesh and sinful character (the old man) are two entirely separate aspects of human nature - at rebirth, the one remains while the other is removed, it ceases to exist, to function.

Yes, I agree, the tendencies, propensities, the momentum that results from cultivating sinful habits and practices through repetition do not go away right away. They remain to tempt people. Certain propensities die off right away while others linger and die off slowly; some never do completely die off. But these particular propensities cannot be a part of the old man. Why? Because Paul tells us that the old man is crucified and buried when people are born again. So the propensities associated with the old man die off right away.

I believe the source of internal temptation, the origin of latent carnal cravings, such as drinking and smoking (in the case of born again believers who are abiding in Jesus) is sinful flesh – not sinful character (the old man).

The cultivated evil propensities associated with sinful character are eliminated when our old man is crucified. “We need not retain one sinful propensity.” (7BC 943) “The religion of Christ is to take possession of the whole being, and give force and power to all our faculties, renovating, cleansing, and refining.” (SD 100)

But the inherited evil propensities associated with sinful flesh are not eliminated until Jesus returns. “Evil propensities are to be controlled.” (CG 42) “He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him”. (AA 476)

People who experience the miracle of rebirth have, in light of the cross, confessed their old man habits and practices of sin, and they have crucified and buried the old man. They receive the implanted mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God's character, with all the fruits of the Spirit. The moment they are born again they are sanctified and perfect. They begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. Like Jesus, they begin perfect (complete) and they become perfect (mature). As babes in Christ, they grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit "more and more unto the perfect day". They advance from one stage of perfection to another, perfecting holiness unto the honor and glory of God our Father.

I think I agree with the words you wrote, although it's a bit difficult to decipher. However, I think you mean something different by them than I would. For example, I think you think that a born again person commits no sins. Not just known sins, but unknown sins as well, except for things you call "mental," the only example of which I know is the Sabbath.

Yes. God reveals our sins to us through the light of His Word. But we are not able to grasp all this light at once. Of course it’s easy to see immediately the most obvious sins: killing, stealing, lying, blasphemy, adultery, etc. But there are more subtle sins that we may not notice immediately.


But "traits" refer not only to what is developed, but also to that which we are born with.
Ellen White uses these terms interchangeably. It’s clear they are synonyms. The only possible distinction might be that the tendencies are that which is inside you, while traits might refer to the outward manifestation of these tendencies.

“Each soul inherits certain un-Christlike traits of character. It is the grand and noble work of a lifetime to keep under control these tendencies to wrong.” {HP 231.2}

“Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. . . .” {RC 298.2}

“Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you.”{6MR 84.3}

“No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul.” {FLB 140.4}

The first is a definition for "trait," the second for "tendency."