Would you consider that train track switch operator as having no responsibility in the outcome?

For 6000 years, God has prevented the result of sin from being fully realized. If He suddenly changes His course of action such that all the sinners who ever lived reap the consequences within a short time of each other, don't you think that can rightly be called "doing something"?

BTW, a localized modification in the values of G (F=GMm/r^2) and/or k (F=kQq/r^2) would prevent harm to the silly jumper. No angelic intervention required.

Yes. I don't see this has any relation to our discussion though.



I think it would be similar to the analogy I gave. That is, for 6,000 years, God sends an angel to prevent a person's jumping off a building from being fatal, or, to use Scott's illustration, He miraculously replaces the solid ground with a swimming pool. So God would be "doing something" in the sense of not miraculously putting in a pool.

This can't really be characterized as God's doing something so much as people becoming accustomed to God's doing something, and expecting Him to continue doing the same thing.



Or God could put in a pool. Or miraculously put a giant pogo stick in the hands of the one falling. I agree; lots of ways to save the jumper without using angels.

I was thinking more about this. This could have some bad side effects.

Wait, that was ambiguous. Let's try that again.

Does the train track switch operator have any responsibility if he allows the kid to be crushed by the train?

Of course a switch operator has responsibility. No one would argue this, would they?

However, I don't see this as being a good analogy, because God, in real life (as I perceive things) is not performing an analogous act in choosing not to prevent one to exercise a choice, done with the knowledge of the consequences involved.

The kid playing on the tracks is not making a conscious choice to die, like someone jumping off a building would be doing in the analogy I suggested.

Perhaps a good thing to do, to help us communicate, is to explain what we think is happening in the judgment. From the GC 543 quote, it seems to me what happens is the wicked simply do not want to live if living means being with God, abiding by the principles of love, being around those who love God, etc. The conscious choice of sin/self over love/God results in the destruction of their character, which ruin ends in their voluntary exclusion from heaven.

Boy, that was briefer than I thought it was going to be! I'll stop here.

In our previous discussions I presented this argument to you many times, Tom - that God cannot be exempted from responsibility when He lets people die by removing His grace. As I said in the thread "The Atonement," God's act of removing His grace would be equivalent to removing the net from bellow the person who jumped from the building and then saying that the person died because of his/her own choice. This is only partly true, like in the case of the switch operator.

This choice is made before the judgment - during the life of the person. At the judgment the person just understands the sinfulness of his/her sins and the value of the salvation he/she refused to accept. It's this that will cause agony to the person and kill him/her.

Yes, I agree with. Such is the balance between man's inalienable free will and God's sovereign choice.

As for Rosangela's previous post, the end of the wicked is actually by God's discretion, for he rules over all eventualities whatsover - and rules JUSTLY & is HOLY throughout!

I don't recall this. The idea that God is responsible seems to be Satan's argument. From DA 764:



This seems to exempt God from responsibility and place it upon the wicked, which, IMO, is where it belongs.



It's more like God's not miraculously placing a net in place, as opposed to His removing it. It's like if you take poison, and God provides a remedy so you don't die, so you have time to decide if you really want the poison or not. You decided you want the poison, and God says, "Ok, if that's your choice, I'll respect it."

I really don't see how God can be help responsible for the wickeds' choice of sin. It seems to me the only way God could be responsible would be if sin were innocuous.