I'm not sure what you agree with, Tom. Also, the "moral sins versus mental sins" concept can be summed up in the following way: instinctive versus intellectual. We are born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments. But not so with the first four commandments. These must be learned through Bible study and prayer.

Yes, we inherit traits and then we cultivate them (but not all of them). Some of them lay dormant within us until the day we die. No one person, except Jesus, can cultivate all of the traits they inherit.

Tendencies (inclinations, propensities) are also inherited and cultivated. They tempt us from within to be unlike Jesus. As we sin, we add to the momentum of sinful nature, and pass it on to our children stronger and more dreadful.

Polygamy disproves this. Polygamy is a sin against the last 6 commandments which is not instinctive.

Living with someone without being married is another one. One could hardly argue this is something someone knows by instinct is wrong. Indeed, it's not easy to prove it's wrong at all. (consider, for example, couples who plan to live together until they die; is that necessarily sin?

Rosangela's example of self-pity is another.

Another example would be using sarcasm without realizing that's what one is doing.

Another example would be confusing righteous indignation with something else.

Another example would be thinking one is speaking emphatically when one is actually yelling.

Another example would be not taking care of one's self (that is, not living healthfully; three good Adventist examples would be not getting enough exercise, partaking of two much sugar, and not getting enough rest).

Another example would be coveting. Paul was certainly not aware by instinct that this is wrong. Indeed, he says if it were not for the law, he wouldn't have known at all. Therefore it's clearly not instinctual.

Another example would be not recognizing that one is wrong, or refusing to admit such regardless of the evidence presented.

Another example would be taking the life of another in certain situations, for example, war. Is that a sin? Is this something would know instinctively? How about self-defence?

Another example would be certain types of lies, for example, white lies. If someone asks you how you are, and you say "fine," is that a sin if you're really only feeling so-so? Or if you tell someone else they look good when in reality they only look fair?

This isn't even considering sins of omissions. How about sins that one could have avoided if one had taken advantage of opportunities to learn about them? How could these possibly be considered instinctive?

How about not taking care of one's parents? Is this a sin? How about if one doesn't know whose one's parents are, but could have known if a detective had been hired? Is this a sin?

There's a thousand examples like this that could be given. There's no scriptural basis, or otherwise, to split the commandments like this. Nothing in Scripture says the first 4 commandments are "mental" but the last six are "instinctive."

Here's an excerpt from a manuscript:

Because mankind was originally made in the image and likeness of God, we are born with both a conscious and instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong. “God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.” (Romans 12:2) For example, we know from birth that it is morally wrong to lie, cheat, steal, murder, et cetera. Nobody has to tell us such things are wrong. We just know it naturally, instinctively. That’s how God programmed us from birth.

"As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. (RC 106) The human mind is endowed with power to discriminate between right and wrong. (DA 458)

Even a cursory study of feral children, humans who were raised by animals, makes it obvious that we are born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong. Without ever having been told, feral children know it is wrong to lie, cheat, steal, and murder. In fact, they feel guilty when they violate any one of the last six commandments. The reason they are able to feel guilty is due to the fact humans are born with a conscious and instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong.

Although we are born with a conscious and instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments we are not, however, born with a mental or biblical knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the first four commandments. For example, we do not know from birth that it is morally wrong to worship false gods, to make idols, to take the Lord’s name in vain, or to violate the Sabbath day. Nor are we born with an understanding of lifestyle doctrines like diet and dress reform.

Until we learn about such things through Bible study and prayer, we unwittingly disobey them, that is, we sin ignorantly. God does not, of course, hold us responsible until we are convicted of the truth. Consequently, it is possible for someone to experience “rebirth” before they understand the first four commandments. This applies to people, like indigenous natives, who have never heard of Jesus but who live in harmony with what they know naturally from birth. They are morally but not mentally converted.

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. (Romans 2:13-15)

"Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. (DA 638)

We can also apply the principle of “morally but not mentally converted” to Christians who do not understand the truth about Sabbath keeping, or diet and dress reform, or any other doctrine which requires Bible study and prayer. In other words, a person can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. More about this later on.

There's no reason to assert this. The only part of this that looks like it follows to me is the Sabbath. I'll mention two counter-examples. First of all, in regards to the last six commandments, Paul explicitly states that he would not have known that coveting was wrong without the law, so the last six commandments are not purely instinctive.

Regarding the first 4, Paul explicitly states that everyone knows from creation about God, and should be thankful to Him. Psalm 19 also points out that all know of God. We also know from the Spirit of Prophecy that there are those who have not known Scripture who will be saved. Therefore it is possible to have a knowledge of the first 4 commandments apart from Scripture.



This is fine. All doctrines require Bible study and prayer.

The last six commandments are written in human hearts and minds at conception, thus Paul could write what he did about covetousness.

Do you really believe people are born with a knowledge of the first four commandments? Do you mean god or God?

If the last six commandments are written in human hearts and minds at conception, Paul could *not* write what he did about covetousness. He wouldn't have needed to learn it from the law, since he would already have known it.



No, I didn't say this. However, I do really believe what I actually said. I'll repeat it for your convenience:





The Scriptures I cited speak of "God," don't you agree? (Ps. 19, Rom. 1).

When did Paul realize covetousness is a violation of the law? As a child? As a youth? As an adult? Do you really believe people can suffer the consequences of covetousness without realizing it is the source of what is causing them to feel bad and rotten?

Is there a difference between knowing something instinctively and then learning later on that the law also prohibits it? And, is there a difference between knowing something is wrong and then seeing it for the first time in light of the cross?

So, you really believe people can learn to obey the first four commandments without learning about them through Bible study and prayer? Do you also believe they can ascertain the truth about the Son of God and the plan of salvation without learning about it through Bible study and prayer?

As an adult. Paul was converted as an adult. He's talking about his conversion.



Do you really believe people can suffer the consequences of having other gods above God without realizing it is the source of what is causing them to feel bad and rotten?

At any rate, Paul said



This completely contradicts what you are saying, which is that Paul instinctively knew that covetous is sin. "For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, 'Do not covet.'"



Of course there's a difference. This is a red herring anyway, since Paul wasn't talking about learning something "also." He says he wouldn't have known it without the law. That means that he didn't know it before he learned it from the law, so he didn't know it instinctively.



Yes, of course. These are orthogonal concepts.



No, not fully, any more than they can learn to obey the last six commandments without learning about them through Bible study and prayer. Paul explicitly cites covetousness as an example.



Not fully, but a person can be saved without knowing the Scriptures, that is clear.

You seem to be saying Paul did not understand the 10th commandment before his conversion. As a learned Pharisee, what did he think it meant? It's hard to believe he was totally clueless. What changed just before he was converted? Certainly he was aware of the law before his conversion. The question is - At what point was he cognizant of it, namely, aware that covetousness is debilitating?

The following passages reiterate the idea I've been espousing, that people are born with a moral knowledge of what is right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments:

"God has written His law upon every nerve and muscle, every fiber and function of the human body. {Ev 265.4}

"His law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every fiber of our being, upon every faculty which has been entrusted to man. {OHC 266.2}

"As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. (RC 106)

"The human mind is endowed with power to discriminate between right and wrong. (DA 458)

"Every careless, inattentive action, any abuse put upon the Lord's wonderful mechanism, by disregarding His specified laws in the human habitation, is a violation of God's law. wonderful. {CD 17.2}

Paul would have been aware of the sinfulness of selfish, sinful desires. No one is ignorant of the fact such desires are destructive and counterproductive. From a very early age people are able to put two and two together, realizing that coveting the things other people have, knowing they cannot have it without taking it by force, makes them feel lousy.

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's." {PP 309.4}

"The tenth commandment strikes at the very root of all sins, prohibiting the selfish desire, from which springs the sinful act. He who in obedience to God's law refrains from indulging even a sinful desire for that which belongs to another will not be guilty of an act of wrong toward his fellow creatures. {PP 309.5}