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Re: Whose are we?
#10161
09/23/03 12:44 PM
09/23/03 12:44 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Darius, if the SDA church is not the remnant church of Rev 12-22, then who do you believe will fulfill the warning messages of Rev 14?
There is a reason why the rise of the SDA church is not prophecied. To quote Elder Floyd Bresee, "God is not stuck with the Seventh-day Adventist church."
Since you have broached the subject of the warning messages, please tell us why you believe that the angels referred to in this passage mean human beings whereas in other related passages they refer to the actual angels. What is the basis for the differential in interpretation?
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Re: Whose are we?
#10162
09/23/03 12:46 PM
09/23/03 12:46 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Larry Kirkpatrick:
Darius JDPhD,
You are placing a variety of ideas and words into my mouth. I reccommend you extract these and simply go with what I asked.
Life is about meaning. Words have meaning. If you are not prepared to stand by the clear meaning of your chosen words it would be of no benefit conversing with you.
Just yesterday I had to tell my son, if you do not have any confidence in the words you have spoken to own up to them why should anyone listen to what you have to say?
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Re: Whose are we?
#10163
09/23/03 12:49 PM
09/23/03 12:49 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Larry Kirkpatrick:
Again then, is there some definite, particular question you have in mind in regard to the world church's biblical understanding that at the end of time, there will be a group of people characterized by the twin distinctives of (1) Keeping God's commandments including the seventh-day Sabbath, and (2) having the testimony of Jesus active in their midst—the Spirit of prophecy?
This is a perennial truth. It was true in Paul's time and will be true when the end actually arrives.
But, don't be so smug about "including the seventh-day Sabbath." Do you truly think that our church is keeping the Sabbath according to the commandment," or do you think that all that is required is intellectual acceptance that the seventh-day is the Sabbath?
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Re: Whose are we?
#10164
09/24/03 02:28 AM
09/24/03 02:28 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Darius, do you believe any and all Christians and churches constitute the remnant according to Rev 12-22? If not, then what do you believe about the remnant of Rev 12-22?
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Re: Whose are we?
#10165
09/23/03 03:18 PM
09/23/03 03:18 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Darius, do you believe any and all Christians and churches constitute the remnant according to Rev 12-22? If not, then what do you believe about the remnant of Rev 12-22?
The remnant refers to the saints, not to a particular group within the body of Christ. It is the people who constitute the remnant.
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Re: Whose are we?
#10166
09/23/03 04:09 PM
09/23/03 04:09 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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What is a saint? And is the end time remnant made up of saints who believe contradicting truths?
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Re: Whose are we?
#10167
09/24/03 01:08 AM
09/24/03 01:08 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
John, whose we are and who we are should be one and the same - Christ's and Christians.
Mike I agree with you wholeheartedly and absolutely. Whose we are absolutely declares who we are!Hmmm…
But now I have a problem…there is this doctrine of imputed and imparted righteousness, which seems to make a difference between the two. You see, they say, imputed is 100%, but the imparted is …5-10-15-25-50-80%. That sort of puts a difference between 'whose we are' and 'who we are'.
So you see, we are rather short of the mind of Christ whenever we look at ourselves and assess our worth. While when our eyes are on him and our conversation is in heaven then we are 100%. But it is so that they whose eyes are on themselves think highly of themselves, and there is the problem.
As you see 'our' self-assessment of 'our' identification as those 'Keeping God's commandments' & 'having the testimony of Jesus active in their midst—the Spirit of prophecy (books on the shelf)', is rather at odds with the testimony of the faithful and true witness.
He says "I know thy works… thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, … and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" What does that mean to 'our' commandment keeping?
He also says," Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in…" What does that mean to 'us'? If he is knocking on the outside of the door, then he is not 'in the midst', is he? So friends, I know only of one way to be 100%. - 'not I but Christ'. It is then that all that matters to us is 'whose we are' and when that is so 'who we are' is one with 'whose we are' and there is no difference. Praise be to God!
When we think of ourselves I pray that all come to the realizations that Paul expressed in recounting his qualifications,Philippians 3: 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Shalom
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Re: Whose are we?
#10168
09/24/03 05:43 AM
09/24/03 05:43 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
What is a saint? And is the end time remnant made up of saints who believe contradicting truths?
Saints are the same whether they come at the beginning or at the end. The remnant is not different from the rest of the bolt. The answer to contradicting truth is not for one sub-group to unilaterally declare that it holds no contradicting truth. It does not take much to demonstrate that every denomination holds contradicting truth. The answer is to identify the cause of the condition under which rational individuals find themselves holding contradicting truth. This is the area in which the SDA needs to step up and contribute to the Christian community, but in which we have failed them. Instead, we have maintained the same system that leads to contradicting truth.
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Re: Whose are we?
#10169
09/24/03 07:20 PM
09/24/03 07:20 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
The answer is to identify the cause of the condition under which rational individuals find themselves holding contradicting truth.
Yes, yes!
Shalom
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Re: Whose are we?
#10170
09/25/03 12:03 AM
09/25/03 12:03 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 213
Alabama
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Darius,
Usually contradictory beliefs that reside in a body of believers or a person can be attributed to conflicting goals, ideas, or self-exaltation... Don't forget those other motivators fear, and love.... (power is also a factor)
The question is which factors are at work within our church.....
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