I never said sin would destroy itself. I've been quoting DA 764:



This doesn't say "sin will destroy itself." It says that death is "the inevitable result of sin." This is what I have said. Not once have I said "sin will destroy itself." Many, many times I've said "death is the inevitable result of sin."

You haven't said this in the present discussion, but you said it in previous discussions. In the thread "The Atonement" you said it in post #75920 and subsequent posts.



It seems to me you still defend this.

"Self" is referring to the one practicing it. This says, " It is destructive to the one, or self, who is practicing it." The "self" here is referring to the person, not the sin. Again this says, "It destroys the one who does it." It doesn't say, "It destroys itself."

Sinners destroy themselves by insisting to cling to sin.



The problem is clearly sin. Sin causes the revelation of the character of God to result in death for one group of people, while for another, the same revelation results in life.

Why are we talking like sin is some kind of an entity in itself? Sin is rebellion against God. Sin happens in the minds of sinners (that's all of us). Sins are what people do who are in rebellion against God. How could sin destroy itself? Sinners destroy themselves all the time! That is a given! And when they die their sin, as far as they are concerned, is over and dead.

All God needs to do to wipe out sin is to remove all His holy influence and leave sinners to their own demise. I would call it releasing the four winds of strife, the end of probation, or the destruction of the wicked.

The real question is not whether or not sinners could survive a world run by Satan with none of God’s influence present, but how long would it take for them to destroy the whole earth including themselves!

The resurrection and final death of the wicked seems to be an answer to several questions that no one is asking. What would a world be like without the influence of God? Is there life outside of God? Can beings survive without God? If the answer to these questions is “no” then it is very obvious that Satan’s rebellion had no foundation in the first place and he is a liar from the beginning.

scott

Tom, I said "and subsequent posts."

#75923 "If sin destroys a person's life, it destroys itself, because sin cannot exist apart from one's life."

#75927 "Sin is not a sentient being which can do anything. When we speak of sin, just as in the case of the law, doing something, this is a metaphor. Sin causes the one who sins to irrationally choose death, which is how it 'destroys itself.'"

However, in your post #75929 you said this: "Saying that sin destroys itself is an unclear way of putting things. I'm quite sure I've never said that."

Now I'm confused. Which is your position?

By the way, when I re-read part of that discussion, I remembered Ecclesiastes 1:9 - "What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; and there is nothing new under the sun." What we are discussing is what we have already discussed...

It should be clear than whenever words like "sin" or "law" are used in ways indicating volition, that a metaphor is intended.

Regarding this quote:



This is true, isn't it? I mean, don't even you agree with it?

Let's start from the bottom.

Do sinners choose to sin because they are consciously choosing the Lake of Fire? Do they stand there holding the skin mag thinking, "I think I'd like to so damage myself that God's glory will be a consuming fire to me"? Unless your experience is drastically different from mine, we both know that is not how it works. We are tempted to sin because sin is presented as something pleasing, not something that will result in misery, agony, and eternal death. So while some sinners are represented by someone knowingly jumping off the building, most are better represented by the kid playing on the tracks, and growing to love playing on the tracks so much that they will eventually prefer to stay there even if the train is coming.

So when God finally sighs, "Well, if that's how you want it...." and lets the train run over the sinner, even though He is fully able to make the train go on another track as He has done for so long and for so many, do you believe that God has some responsibility for how things turn out? Consider also that He made the train, the tracks, the switch, and the sinner.

And in your analogy, God made the building, the ground, gravity, the electromagnetic force, and the jumper.

During our life here, yes, people are not aware of the consequences of what they are doing, but in the judgment they are. GC 543 tells us that the choice of the wicked is voluntary to themselves. DA 764 tells us that the destruction of the wicked is *not* due to a discretionary choice on the part of God, but due to the choice of the wicked.

But when is the irrevocable decision made that dooms the lost to destruction? It is made "during our life here." In the judgment, when things are crystal clear to all, there is no opportunity to make a new decision. So the choice to be lost is often made before one clearly sees how it will play out; all he has to go by is "the wages of sin is death," without necessarily knowing all the reasons why.

That's why the "kid on the tracks" analogy is much more accurate in general than the "jumping off a building" analogy. Few people choose sin knowing fully and clearly that it will end badly. Most people choose sin thinking that it will be more fun than the alternative, while ignoring wise counsel.

For a long time, God switches the train to the other tracks to keep the sinner alive, and to continue giving wise counsel. Someday, God will let the train run over the sinner. It will be fully the sinner's fault, but I can't say that God had nothing to do with it.


Yes, the sinner is fully responsible for being on the tracks. God did not put him there. In fact, God kept telling him to get off the tracks. God even went so far as to send His Son to die on the tracks, so we could see clearly how nasty things can get for people on the tracks. But the sinner loves playing on the tracks so much that even when he sees clearly the train is coming, he'll prefer to stay on the tracks.

So, yes, it is the sinner's choice that determines the outcome.

However, God, not the sinner, made the train and the tracks. God made things run the way they do. Could He have made them a different way? Yes. Could He have set things up so that the sinner does not die? Yes.

Here's how Graham Maxwell put it (with my emphasis):
He could have, but He refused to. That is discretionary choice on the part of God.

Sinners die because they choose to be sinners. They could have chosen to obey and live, but they refused. That's their decision.

There are only two option: 1) obey and live, 2) disobey and die. There is no option to disobey and live. Or in Maxwell's illustration, there is no possibility of everlasting life imprisonment. That was a decision God made long ago.