I agree, Arnold. Is it possible for one how is led by the Spirit to inadvertantly curse? If so, then why would God need to keep him alive so he could repent?

Yes. My kids, 7yo and 10yo, inadvertently curse now and then. Sometimes they make up words or mispronounce words that turn out to be curse words, but they don't even know that they are. I don't see any sin in that.

However, the Spirit does not lead into sin, ever. If one sins, it is by the leading of another power.


First of all, the SOP says that the angels keep such a one safe. So the first point to keep in mind is that God does keep him alive.

Why would He do that? It's part of the great controversy. Along with proving that sin is a bad thing, the GC proves that God is able to redeem sinners. If God does not keep him alive, all that's left is hearsay, not proof.

I like that thought. Good Post.

Of course this has nothing to do with our discussion. We've been talking about people who know what cursing is and what the words mean. If your going to mention your kids, you might as well mention yourself. I'm sure you say all sorts of sware words in other languages without being aware of it (i.e. common English sounds and words are swear words in other languages). To be guilty of cursing one needs to know what the meaning of the words are, and why they are improper to use as a follower of Christ.



Of course, but this is not under consideration. No one in this forum is arguing that the Spirit leads people into sin.



This is assuming that sinning only occurs as the result of the leading of a power.



The quote was talking about more serious matters, such as one in danger of resisting the Spirit to eternal loss. It wasn't talking about inadvertant cursing.



This isn't the issue I'm asking about. I've been asking about inadvertant cursing.

I asked if it's possible for one that is led of the Spirit to inadvertantly curse, and if so, why God would need to keep such a person alive. I still don't know what your answer to these questions are. You spoke of children cursing who don't know what they're doing, which isn't what I was asking. Then you said that the SOP quote says God keeps such people alive, when first of all her quote doesn't address that, and secondly, it still hasn't been answered whether a person who is led of the Spirit can inadvertantly curse. You answered "yes," but your explanation involved people who don't know what they're doing, so I don't know the answer to the question in its context.

I found this on another forum ...

OK. So if the action in question is considered a sin, then we agree that the person doing it was not led by the Spirit.


Either we are walking in the Spirit or walking in the flesh. I don't see another option.

I suppose a 3rd option is that certain actions are not led by either God or the flesh, but just happen spontaneously and randomly. But I don't think that actually happens.


They are talking about sinning, which is what we need to focus on. Inadvertent cursing is ambiguous to the point of being useless as a point of reference in regard to determining points of doctrine.

Let's look at one of the quotes again:
This is talking about people who are tempted to sin. This side of eternity, that includes all of us. Whether the temptation is for a "big" sin or "little" sin, as long as there is hope, until they resist the Holy Spirit to their eternal ruin, men are guarded by heavenly intelligences.

We agree that the Spirit does not lead into sin. So, let's consider MM's hypothetical situation where a person sins just before his fatal accident. (Note: If I understood MM correctly, he considered cursing a sin. If we're not talking about cursing as a sin, then there's nothing to repent about, and the confusion is over.)

If a person sins just before dying, was that person led by the Spirit just before dying? I don't think so.

If he was not led by the Spirit, is that something that needs to be repented of before one closes his life's history? Yes.


You'll have to clarify for me how you look at inadvertent cursing. Is that a sin? If so, then what he does about it is most definitely part of the GC and the IJ. If not, then there's nothing to worry about, since sin is the only thing that can cause us a problem.


Again, it depends on what you think is inadvertent cursing, and if it counts as a sin. I gave an example of what I can think of as inadvertent cursing, but you don't like it. What do you have in mind?

As an ex-curser, I can't really imagine what inadvertent cursing is, other than saying things that I didn't know was a curse word. Perhaps another possibility is saying a word that is generally used as a curse word, but without any malicious thoughts or feelings behind it. I would not consider such a case as a curse.

However, if one was upset and mumbled to himself, "Uneducated particle of feces," I would count that as a curse. Can that happen inadvertently? Can self rise up inadvertently?

Now I'm reminded of Moses. Sin kind of sneaked up on him, didn't it? Did he need to repent? Yes, he did. When self gets off the cross, even for a moment, even if it was unexpected, it needs to be crucified again by repentance.

This looks to be making a couple of assumptions which haven't been established. One looks to be that if a person will only sin if led into sin by some outside power. Another is that a person led by the Spirit will not commit any sin (there are different types of sin to consider, such as sins of ignorance, inadvertant sins -- by which I mean not pre-meditated, and deliberate sins).

My question was a specific one regarding inadvertant cursing. The principles involved can be applied to other behaviors as well.

You made the statement, "As an ex-curser, I can't really imagine what inadvertent cursing is, other than saying things that I didn't know was a curse word."

I wrote the following:



I asked you:



I'm still interested in your response. Understanding your thinking here I think could help in responding to what you've written.

As I wrote previously, the power could be the internal promptings of self. An outside power is not needed in order to sin. However, an outside power is needed in order to not sin.


1Jn 3 tells us that whoever is born of God does not, cannot sin. So that establishes that there is at least one class of sin that no true Christian commits. I think we can agree that deliberate sins fall into this category.

Then there are sins of ignorance, where a person does something that he honestly did not know was sin. (This presumes that the person did not have the opportunity to learn, as opposed to those who choose to remain ignorant.) I believe a person led by the Spirit can still fall into these. But they always walk in all the light available to them.

Now, how about the sneaky, un-premeditated sins, like Moses' sin at the rock? I think one must let go of the Spirit before he falls into such sin. If we are in the Spirit, He can keep us from falling and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.


I'm not sure where the thief was, as we don't have much data. But we can safely say that he was at least at B, because he was saved. How far he got down the list before dying, we don't know.

But when I went through it, I skipped from B to J. I did not go through any of the steps in between. I assume that same power was available back then.

In terms of the IJ, it only counts as far as H. Once there is not outward manifestation of sin, there is no evidence to look at. Again, it would only be hearsay at that point. Is that how far one needs to go for God to let him die peacefully? Or maybe J? I don't know.

Again, the crucial point is what constitutes sin. If the onlooking universe determines that steps C-J are not sinful, then B is all that's needed. But then, I have little insight as to how the jury will lean on this issue.

What I do know is that for me, anything less than J is failure. I know better, and I know the power is available to me. If someone cuts me off on the freeway, leading to my death, the last words from me should be, "Father, forgive them."

Arnold, what I've been asking is why would God need to keep someone alive who inadvertantly cursed so that he could repent. This seems totally unnecessary.

It seems to me one need only ask the question, would a given person be happy in heaven. If the answer is "yes," that settles it. It seems to me that on the cross, this is what went through Jesus' mind. The theif asked to be taken to heaven. Jesus saw the request was genuine and honored it. That's all that was necessary.

It seems to me that just because a person inadvertantly curses, or commits some other sin, does not mean the person would not be happy in heaven. I agree with you that deliberate, premeditated sins are of another character. These would constitute rebellion.

I have in mind the following:

You're looking at a different facet. It seems to me to be central to the "Maxwellian" belief system. And it is correct.

But I'm looking at another aspect, a penal aspect, if you will. The Great Controversy has lasted this long, not because God doesn't know who will or will not be happy in heaven. It is because WE don't know who will or will not be happy in heaven. You will find this in Maxwellian doctrine also, along the lines of why God didn't immediately destroy Satan.

God is on trial. He has chosen to put Himself on trial. Therefore, He is not free to make sovereign decisions as you suggest because the wisdom of His sovereign decisions are in question. If there was no question, there would be no problem. But there is, so there is.

If the whole story consisted of what you posted, then things could have been very simple:

• Step 1: God should keep silent and give no light that can be rejected, keeping everyone sinless.
• Step 2: Remove His protection from everyone so that they die immediately.
• Step 3: Make a list of who would have been happy in heaven, and who would have been sad.
• Step 4: Give each one eternal life or eternal death based on the list.

Why is it necessary to keep the person alive if he was going to repent? The same reason why Satan was kept alive. Each one must be given the chance to manifest, not just profess, what kind of creature he is.