I'm talking about his cultivated sinful traits of character, not the sins he committed ignorantly. Will Jesus change these when he returns and resurrects the thief?

By the way, can you name a sin the thief might have cultivated ignorantly?

And, do cultivated sins of ignorance become a part of ones character?

Here's how I see things. The character determines what a person will do in a certain situation. Of primary concern is how a person would be in heaven. Would he be happy? Would he be a good citizen? Regarding the thief on the cross, the answer to these questions was evident to Jesus Christ, who answered him, "Yes" when requested to be a part of His kingdom.

I'm sure Jesus wasn't considering his cultivated sins or ignorance, nor cultivated sins at all. It was enough to see that he was responding to the Holy Spirit, and knew who He (Jesus Christ) was and was interested in being a part of His kingdom.

What did you think of this:

Here's how I see things. The character determines what a person will do in a certain situation. Of primary concern is how a person would be in heaven. Would he be happy? Would he be a good citizen? Regarding the thief on the cross, the answer to these questions was evident to Jesus Christ, who answered him, "Yes" when requested to be a part of His kingdom.

I'm sure Jesus wasn't considering his cultivated sins or ignorance, nor cultivated sins at all. It was enough to see that he was responding to the Holy Spirit, and knew who He (Jesus Christ) was and was interested in being a part of His kingdom.

"This man was not a hardened criminal; he had been led astray by evil associations, but he was less guilty than many of those who stood beside the cross reviling the Saviour. He had seen and heard Jesus, and had been convicted by His teaching, but he had been turned away from Him by the priests and rulers. Seeking to stifle conviction, he had plunged deeper and deeper into sin, until he was arrested, tried as a criminal, and condemned to die on the cross.

"In the judgment hall and on the way to Calvary he had been in company with Jesus. He had heard Pilate declare, "I find no fault in Him." John 19:4. He had marked His godlike bearing, and His pitying forgiveness of His tormentors. On the cross he sees the many great religionists shoot out the tongue with scorn, and ridicule the Lord Jesus. He sees the wagging heads. He hears the upbraiding speeches taken up by his companion in guilt: "If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us." Among the passers-by he hears many defending Jesus. He hears them repeat His words, and tell of His works.

"The conviction comes back to him that this is the Christ. Turning to his fellow criminal he says, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?" The dying thieves have no longer anything to fear from man. But upon one of them presses the conviction that there is a God to fear, a future to cause him to tremble. And now, all sin-polluted as it is, his life history is about to close. "And we indeed justly," he moans; "for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this Man hath done nothing amiss." {DA 749.3}

"There is no question now. There are no doubts, no reproaches. When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus, how He has healed the sick and pardoned sin. He has heard the words of those who believed in Jesus and followed Him weeping. He has seen and read the title above the Saviour's head. He has heard the passers-by repeat it, some with grieved, quivering lips, others with jesting and mockery.

"The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. "Lord, remember me," he cries, "when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." {DA 750.1}

"While the leading Jews deny Him, and even the disciples doubt His divinity, the poor thief, upon the brink of eternity, calls Jesus Lord. Many were ready to call Him Lord when He wrought miracles, and after He had risen from the grave; but none acknowledged Him as He hung dying upon the cross save the penitent thief who was saved at the eleventh hour. {DA 750.3}

"Such faith may be represented by the eleventh hour laborers who receive as much reward as do those who have labored for many hours. The thief asked in faith, in penitence, in contrition. He asked in earnestness, as if he fully realized that Jesus could save him if He would. And the hope in his voice was mingled with anguish as he realized that if He did not, he would be lost, eternally lost. He cast his helpless, dying soul and body on Jesus Christ." {5BC 1125.1}

"Some among the redeemed will have laid hold of Christ in the last hours of life, and in heaven instruction will be given to these, who, when they died, did not understand perfectly the plan of salvation. {Mar 320.2}

Thousands in the eleventh hour will see and acknowledge the truth. . . . These conversions to truth will be made with a rapidity that will surprise the church, and God's name alone will be glorified.--2SM 16 (1890). {LDE 212.1}

There will be thousands converted to the truth in a day who at the eleventh hour see and acknowledge the truth and the movements of the Spirit of God.--EGW'88 755 (1890). {LDE 212.2}

The time is coming when there will be as many converted in a day as there were on the Day of Pentecost, after the disciples had received the Holy Spirit.--Ev 692 (1905). {LDE 212.3}

"But I speak not my own words when I say that God's Spirit will pass by those who have had their day of test and opportunity, but who have not distinguished the voice of God or appreciated the movings of His Spirit. Then thousands in the eleventh hour will see and acknowledge the truth. {2SM 16.1}

"The law of God is made void, and even among those who advocate its binding claims are some who break its sacred precepts. The Bible will be opened from house to house, and men and women will find access to these homes, and minds will be opened to receive the Word of God; and, when the crisis comes, many will be prepared to make right decisions, even in the face of the formidable difficulties that will be brought about through the deceptive miracles of Satan. Although these will confess the truth and become workers with Christ at the eleventh hour, they will receive equal wages with those who have wrought through the whole day. There will be an army of steadfast believers who will stand as firm as a rock through the last test. . . . {3SM 390.3}

"The sands of your life are nearly run out, and now if you will come to God just as you are, without one plea but that He has died to save the chiefest of sinners, you will find pardon even in this the eleventh hour. Man must cooperate with God. Christ did not die to have the power to cover transgression unrepented of and unconfessed. Not all sins are to be confessed publicly, but some are to be confessed alone to God and the parties that have been injured. {TSB 133.4}

"Many who are now the bitterest opponents of truth are acting up to their honest convictions of duty, but they will yet see the truth, and become its warm advocates. Those who now treat them with ridicule, who manifest a harsh spirit toward them, will fall under temptation, and bring reproach upon the cause of God, and cause the loss of souls through their indiscretion. Many who go into the field at the call made at the eleventh hour, will through the grace of Christ so present the truth, that they will be accounted first. {VSS 241.2}

The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. (4T 429)

There is really no place in heaven for these dispositions. A man with such a character will only make heaven miserable, because he himself is miserable. “Except ye be born again,” said Christ, “ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” To enter heaven, a man must have Christ formed within, the hope of glory, and take heaven with him. The Lord Jesus alone can fashion and change the character. For want of patience, kindness, forbearance, unselfishness, and love, the revealings of the traits flash forth involuntarily when off guard, and unchristian words, unchristlikeness of character burst forth sometimes to the ruin of the soul. (FE 279)

If you would be a saint in heaven you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above. (LDE 295)

The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross. (4T 429)

By their actions those connected with our institutions give proof of the worth, or worthlessness, of their judgment. Those who enter the service of the institution with a spirit of unwillingness to help, who do their allotted tasks with a feeling of compulsion, in sullen submission, who act as if they would gladly escape from the drudgery of the necessary daily duties which someone must do, are very little help to the institution. A mechanical obedience may hide the smoldering fire of rebellion, but it is ready to break out at any time against restraint. In the service of such there is no peace or light or love. The atmosphere surrounding their souls is not fragrant. The influence of their words and actions is felt by others, and this influence is a harm even to those who are trying to do their best in any position in which they are placed. Self-pity is deteriorating to the characters of those who cherish it, and it exerts an influence that spoils the happiness of others. {MM 177.3}

We need to beware of self-pity. Never indulge the feeling that you are not esteemed as you should be, that your efforts are not appreciated, that your work is too difficult. Let the memory of what Christ has endured for us silence every murmuring thought. We are treated better than was our Lord. "Seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not." Jeremiah 45:5. The Lord has no place in His work for those who have a greater desire to win the crown than to bear the cross. He wants men who are more intent upon doing their duty than upon receiving their reward--men who are more solicitous for principle than for promotion. {MH 476.2}

Your self-pity is an injury to you; you sympathize with yourself, feel that you are not esteemed as you should be, that your work is altogether too hard, and your best efforts are unappreciated. These feelings are the result of a spiritual disease, which can be cured only through faith in Christ. The temptation seizes you when you are weary or perplexed; but when the first symptoms appear, and the enemy works to make you grumble and murmur, look unto Jesus, trust in your Saviour. This is the only cure for this spiritual malaria. . . . If you allow your mind to be occupied with these things, the enemy will see that you are kept busy. He puts his magnifying glass before your eyes, and mole hills of difficulty are made to appear as mountains. . . . You need to understand how to repose in God. A wise heart, molded by the Holy Spirit, it is your privilege to have; and this is the foundation of all true happiness. . . . {SD 298.2}

God would have you trust in His love, and be constantly guarding your soul by locking the gate of your thoughts, that they shall not become unmanageable; for when you allow your mind to indulge these thoughts of self-pity, the enemy comes in to suggest the most unkind and unreasonable things in regard to those who would do you good, and only good. {SD 298.3}

So, the question is, based on what you've said about the thief, When will the thief confess and crucify the cultivated sinful traits of character he did not have time to confess and crucify on the cross before he died?

There is really no place in heaven for these dispositions. A man with such a character will only make heaven miserable, because he himself is miserable. “Except ye be born again,” said Christ, “ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” To enter heaven, a man must have Christ formed within, the hope of glory, and take heaven with him. The Lord Jesus alone can fashion and change the character. For want of patience, kindness, forbearance, unselfishness, and love, the revealings of the traits flash forth involuntarily when off guard, and unchristian words, unchristlikeness of character burst forth sometimes to the ruin of the soul. (FE 279)

2. Also, since character is formed through repetition, how could the thief have been ignorant of sinful traits like self-pity?

TE: Your conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. That is, the fact that character is formed by repeitition does not prevent people of being ignorant of certain things they do.

MM: True, but can we apply this to sinful traits of character like self-pity?

I agree it applies to truths, like the Sabbath, which require Bible study and prayer, but what about those sins, like self-pity, that even worldings have identified as evil and counterproductive? Self-pity is a temptation "such as is common to man." 1 Cor 10:13. It doesn't take Bible study and prayer to discern the fact self-pity is destructive.

In light of what she wrote about the injurious effects of self-pity, it is hard for me to agree with you that the thief will be resurrected with this sinful trait of character.

3. Was Jesus ignorant of it? If not, why didn't He say anything about it to the thief on the cross?

TE: Probably.

MM: Do you really believe Jesus did not know which cultivated sinful traits of character the thief possessed?

4. By not saying anything about it on the cross, was Jesus in essence saying it didn't matter so far as his salvation was concerned?

TE: Yes

MM: After reading what Sister White wrote about self-pity, do you still believe he will be resurrected with it?

5. And, if it doesn't matter, is that the same thing as saying sinners who possess certain cultivated sinful habits going into the grave will not be resurrected with them when Jesus returns?

TE: No.

MM: What then? Will the thief be resurrected with the cultivated sinful traits of character he did not have time to confess and crucify on the cross before he died?

6. If not, what will happen to the uncrucified cultivated sinful traits of character when a person is resurrected?

TE: The person won't sin after being resurrected, if that's what you're asking.

MM: I agree that resurrected saints will not sin. But what do you think will happen to the cultivated sinful traits of character they did not have time to confess and crucify before they died? Again, here is what she wrote about it: "The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming."

Is it your position that Rosangela was not converted before she realized she had unknowingly been exercising self-pity?

By their actions those connected with our institutions give proof of the worth, or worthlessness, of their judgment. Those who enter the service of the institution with a spirit of unwillingness to help, who do their allotted tasks with a feeling of compulsion, in sullen submission, who act as if they would gladly escape from the drudgery of the necessary daily duties which someone must do, are very little help to the institution. A mechanical obedience may hide the smoldering fire of rebellion, but it is ready to break out at any time against restraint. In the service of such there is no peace or light or love. The atmosphere surrounding their souls is not fragrant. The influence of their words and actions is felt by others, and this influence is a harm even to those who are trying to do their best in any position in which they are placed. Self-pity is deteriorating to the characters of those who cherish it, and it exerts an influence that spoils the happiness of others. {MM 177.3}

We need to beware of self-pity. Never indulge the feeling that you are not esteemed as you should be, that your efforts are not appreciated, that your work is too difficult. Let the memory of what Christ has endured for us silence every murmuring thought. We are treated better than was our Lord. "Seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not." Jeremiah 45:5. The Lord has no place in His work for those who have a greater desire to win the crown than to bear the cross. He wants men who are more intent upon doing their duty than upon receiving their reward--men who are more solicitous for principle than for promotion. {MH 476.2}

Your self-pity is an injury to you; you sympathize with yourself, feel that you are not esteemed as you should be, that your work is altogether too hard, and your best efforts are unappreciated. These feelings are the result of a spiritual disease, which can be cured only through faith in Christ. The temptation seizes you when you are weary or perplexed; but when the first symptoms appear, and the enemy works to make you grumble and murmur, look unto Jesus, trust in your Saviour. This is the only cure for this spiritual malaria. . . . If you allow your mind to be occupied with these things, the enemy will see that you are kept busy. He puts his magnifying glass before your eyes, and mole hills of difficulty are made to appear as mountains. . . . You need to understand how to repose in God. A wise heart, molded by the Holy Spirit, it is your privilege to have; and this is the foundation of all true happiness. . . . {SD 298.2}

God would have you trust in His love, and be constantly guarding your soul by locking the gate of your thoughts, that they shall not become unmanageable; for when you allow your mind to indulge these thoughts of self-pity, the enemy comes in to suggest the most unkind and unreasonable things in regard to those who would do you good, and only good. {SD 298.3}

Why would other unknown traits be different?

Let's take another example, the one you brought up about spontaneously loving others. Now since you believe a person who is born again may not have this, I expect you believe a person could die and go to heaven without having this, or else being born again would not be sufficient for going to heaven, which I doubt you would assert. So what happens in heaven? Won't this person spontaneously love others? So did his character change?

"Let us not love in word," the apostle writes, "but in deed and in truth." The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within. It is the atmosphere of this love surrounding the soul of the believer that makes him a savor of life unto life and enables God to bless his work. {AA 551.1}

Supreme love for God and unselfish love for one another --this is the best gift that our heavenly Father can bestow. This love is not an impulse, but a divine principle, a permanent power. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. Only in the heart where Jesus reigns is it found. "We love Him, because He first loved us." In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the ruling principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life and sheds a refining influence on all around. {AA 551.2}

John strove to lead the believers to understand the exalted privileges that would come to them through the exercise of the spirit of love. This redeeming power, filling the heart, would control every other motive and raise its possessors above the corrupting influences of the world. And as this love was allowed full sway and became the motive power in the life, their trust and confidence in God and His dealing with them would be complete. They could then come to Him in full confidence of faith, knowing that they would receive from Him everything needful for their present and eternal good. "Herein is our love made perfect," he wrote, "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear." "And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He heareth us: and if we know that He hear us, . . . we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him." {AA 551.3}

For instance, there was a time in my life I didn't see self-pity as a sin. God brought me to a circumstance which showed me self-pity as part of my character. I had a vague notion it was sinful, but since I was suffering I thought I had the right to indulge it. Today I see it as a sin in a way I didn't see before, but it took me some years to really come to see things in this light.