Sabbath-breaking is an example. One doesn't need to become a Sabbath-keeper before one can be born again does one?

Duplicate post

This is describing a sin of ignorance. "Don't you think there are things in our lives that we didn't see as sins for a period but that from a certain moment onward we began to see as sins?"



You didn't acknowledge my point. I didn't respond to your question because it wasn't fair, for the reason I pointed out.




It could.



Well, these are phrases you use, not me. I would read these as synonymns.

I don't think of this in these terms. I think of it in terms of would a person be happy in heaven. If yes, then God will take him there. If not, then God won't.

To return to your phrases, if the sinful trait is something known and cherished, and the person has been fighting against the Holy Spirit who has been urging the person that this thing must be given up or he will lost, and the person refuses, I don't see how such a person would be raised in the first resurrection. If it's something of which the person is unaware, then that's a different matter.

I think the "Would the person be happy in heaven?" way of thinking of it is better (easier to understand, more to the point).

Do you have quotes supporting your claim that 1) ignorantly breaking the Sabbath is viewed by God as a "sinful practice" or a "defective trait of character", and 2) one doesn't need to be a Sabbath-keeper before experiencing rebirth.

I agree. But the example she gave doesn't describe a sin of ignorance. Here's what she wrote: "I had a vague notion it was sinful, but since I was suffering I thought I had the right to indulge it. Today I see it as a sin in a way I didn't see before, but it took me some years to really come to see things in this light. How would you classify this kind of sin?" She didn't know how to classify her example, so she asked.


Can you think of an example where a cherished character defect will not bar the gates of heaven against them?


The resurrected sinners will unite with Satan in an attempt to gain control of the New Jerusalem and the New Earth. If God were to simply walk away and let them have their way I suppose they would manage at least as well as they did before the Flood.

Regarding your first question, do you have quotes supporting your claim that it is my claim that ignorantly breaking the Sabbath is viewed by God as a sinful practice or a defective trait of character?

Regarding the second question, do you believe that one needs to be a Sabbath-keeper before experiencing rebirth? If you don't, why are you asking for a quote to establish something you believe is false?



I think you're jumping to an unwarranted conclusion here. You are assuming the reason she asked you how you would classify "this kind of sin" was that she was interested in what you thought. That you would assume she didn't know seems rather presumptuous on your part.

It looks to me like she is describing a sin of ignorance. Given the context of the discussing, it seems likely to me that she was giving this as an example precisely because she viewed it as a sin of ignorance. Why do you think she presented this as an example?

Look at what was said here:



Then she said:



So she *was* giving this as an example of "things in our lives that we didn't see as sins for a period but that from a certain moment onward we began to see as sins?" which you just agreed is a sin of ignorance.

So why are you saying her example is not describing a sin of ignorance?



If by "cherished character defect" you mean something which is done rebelliously, then any such defect that was repented of would not bar such a person from the gates of heaven. However, I think you're not looking at this from the best angle. A better way of considering things is from the standpoint of if the person would be happy in heaven. If yes, then the person will be admitted. If the person doesn't want heaven, he won't be. The wicked are excluded from heaven because that's their choice.



I don't see what point you're trying to make. My point was that if the person would be happy in heaven, God would admit him to heaven. Otherwise if the person chooses to be excluded from heaven, he will be excluded.

Tom, much of what we're discussing here is being discussed elsewhere. So, based on the title of this thread, what sayest thou? Will people be resurrected in the first resurrection with cultivated defective traits of character?

If you answer, no, then please explain why not. If you answer, yes, then please explain why. Thank you.

AFAIK no one has disagreed with the idea that our character will not be changed after death, which the SOP asserts. Regarding cultivated defective traits of character, if you don't include sins of ignorance as a defective trait of character, then I would agree.

Regarding why, our minds define who are how; that is, how we think. As a person thinks in his heart, so is he. When we are resurrected, we continue to think in our heart in the same manner we did before death. If we love God and His principles, we continue doing so when awakened. Any wrong habits would be ignorant ones. When we learn the truth, we will willingly and eagerly follow it.

I'm glad you agree sins of ignorance do not include cultivated sinful traits of character.


Please give examples of "wrong habits" some people will be resurrected with in the first resurrection.

Please take a look at what I said, and what you said. They are not the same. Do you see why?



Not keeping the Sabbath.