102086, by certain practices I mean the issues we've been talking about. The other questions of that post have been addressed. Scott answered 102087.

102088 says that God would have eventually taught the Israelites that having slaves is wrong. You've asked for a quote. Why? Do you doubt that having sins is wrong, or that God would have taught them so? Assuming you agree that having slaves is wrong, that God would have taught them so follows from they assumption that God would lead His people into all truth.

Tom, I don't recall you answering the question as to whether or not God included certain sinful practices in the law of Moses. Did He? If so, were Jews who obeyed those particular laws in the law of Moses guilty of sinning? If not, why not?

If having slaves is wrong and sinful, why did God include it in the law of Moses?

On another note, if killing someone is wrong and sinful, why did God include capital punishment in the law of Moses?

If polygamy is wrong and sinful, why did God include it in the law of Moses?

If divorce is wrong and sinful, why did God include it in the law of Moses?

PS - The law of Moses does not allow divorce for any and all reasons. The idea that it does is unbiblical and erroneous.

We've dealt with this at length. Because of dealing with a stiff-necked ignorant people, God allowed certain practices which were not His ideal will. For example, because of the hardness of their heart, divorce was allowed. As to why polygamy was allowed, this was explained to you in great detail. Because of how women were treated, to not have allowed polygamy would have been a death sentence to them.

I think the whole problem is you seem to have the idea that if something is in the law of Moses, whether polygamy or divorce or slavery, that means it's OK to do these things. Rosangela gave the example of Paul's doing a similar thing in giving advice in regards to a slave. This doesn't mean slavery was OK. Slavery has always been an evil, contrary to God's will.

We've been through all this quite a number of times. I'm not understanding why you're asking these same questions that several people have addressed.

Tom, the reason I keep asking you the same question is due to the fact you have yet to answer them. You dance all around them without actually answering them.

For example, you wrote - "I think the whole problem is you seem to have the idea that if something is in the law of Moses, whether polygamy or divorce or slavery, that means it's OK to do these things."

OK? I'm not asking you if it was OK to obey the law of Moses. Again, here's my question to you, Tom: Were Jews who obeyed the law of Moses guilty of sinning? I can understand you being hesitant to say yes, but I cannot understand you being unwilling to say no. If you do not believe they were guilty of sinning, why not just say so?

Why can't you just say, No, the Jews who obeyed the law of Moses were not guilty of sinning. Especially since Sister White clearly wrote that God gave the Jews the law of Moses specifically to help them keep the 10Cs.

So again, Tom, please be straight forward in your answer. Please use words that clearly convey what you believe. Thank you. Do not be afraid to plainly state your position. I am not going to cry blaspheme or anything like that.

The law of Moses is not the definition of what is morally right. The 10 Commandments is. An even better definition is given by the life and teachings of Christ.

As Rosagela correctly pointed out, the fact that something is not in the law of Moses does not make it OK. She gave the example of Paul's giving councel in regads to the treatment of a slave. This does not mean that having slaves is approved of by God.

Similarly polygamy is not approved by God. This is clear both by Christ's teachings and by statements from Ellen White. For example:





You seem to want to read this as if she said, "God has not sanctioned polygamy in a single instance, except for the law of Moses." But that's not what she said, nor what she believed. She makes it clear that she believed that polygamy was contrary to God's will. Being included in the law of Moses would not make it change to not being contrary to His will.

It is established that something can be in the law of Moses which is contrary to God's will. My whole point the entire discussion has been that if you wish to know God's will, you need to focus on Christ, not the law of Moses. Yet you want to focus on the law of Moses, the very thing contrary to what I'm suggesting.

To answer your question, Jews who keep the law of God, the moral law, are not guilty of sinning. God made accomodations to their ignorance and stubornness (a point you yourself have made). These accomodations did not cause certain acts (e.g. divorce, polygamy, slavery) to not be contrary to God's will, but were necessary accomodations in order for God to lead them from where they were to Christ. If they hadn't resisted, then He would have taught them the same things Christ taught on the Sermon on the Mount, don't you think? After all, God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and God the Father is no different in character than His Son.

This still doesn't answer my question clearly, plainly, and forthrightly. It is very vague and ambiguous. I have no idea what you believe because you haven't answered my question.

Yes or no, were Jews who obeyed the law of Moses guilty of sinning?


Are you implying the hardness of their hearts forced God to temporarily accommodate sinful practices in the law of Moses? By using the phrase "contrary to God's will" do you mean sinning? If not, what do you mean?

You seem to be saying God included sinful practices in the law of Mose with the intention of excluding them later on. But God said, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." Deut 4:2. "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." Deut 12:32. He envisioned them keeping them unto a "thousand generations".

Deuteronomy
7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
7:11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.
7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
7:13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.


Jesus taught the same things in the OT He taught in the NT. He didn't contradict the OT. He didn't change the OT. He magnified it, He didn't diminish it or subtract from it.

My answer was clear, plain and forthright. Sin is defined as transgression of the moral law. Therefore *any* question you ask that is of the form "Were (whoever) who did (whatever) guilty of sinning" can be answered as follows:

If what they did is contrary to the 10 Commandments, then it was sin.

This is a clear, plain, and forthright answer because the 10 Commandments defines sin.

I would say it is your question more than my answer which is not clear. Specifically, what do you have in mind by "obey the Mosaic law"? Actually what this specifically means has been debated for thousands of years, pretty much from the time it was given, so it's hard to find fault with me for not answering your question "yes" or "no." It really depends on what you mean. By what I mean by obeying the law of Moses (which I specified in a previous post) my answer is "no."

The practices I referred to were things like divorce and slavery. If you're asking if I think these things are sin, the answer is yes (except divorce for unfaithfulness).



You don't see any difference between the NT and the OT? Nor between Jesus Christ as revealed in the Gospels and the view of God that the Jews held?

I think this sums up our differences. Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." You have a very different picture of God than what I see when I look at Christ. I would say your picture is wrong. Perhaps you would say my picture of Jesus Christ is wrong.

I am saying you should let Jesus Christ mold your view of God. I hear you saying (or perhaps "implying" would be a better choice of words than "saying") that I should let the OT picture of God mold my view of Jesus Christ.

I'm not understanding the reason for this discussion. Where does the law of Moses command people to practice polygamy?

Here's an explanation as to how this topic started. MM has a theory that none of the last 6 commandments can be done ignorantly. So I asked about polygamy. He agreed that polygamy was a sin. If he admitted that it was a sin against the seventh commandment, then that would disprove his theory. He claimed it was not a transgression against the seventh commandment, but rather against the first four commandments.

That's how the conversation started. From there it's meandered a bit to where now I think MM's point is that if something is mentioned in the law of Moses then it is not a sin.

Yes, the law of Moses makes provision for situations of slavery and polygamy - this doesn't mean they are not sins. As I said, the same is true about the NT.