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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #102624
09/14/08 05:31 PM
09/14/08 05:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Nope, to the first question.

How does ignorantly not keeping the Sabbath become a wrong habit?

Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #102637
09/14/08 07:24 PM
09/14/08 07:24 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'm guessing you're asking why not keeping the Sabbath should be considered a wrong habit. Is that right?

If so, two thoughts come to mind. One is, would you consider not brushing your teeth to be a bad habit?

Second, not only was he not keeping Sabbath, but he was keeping Sunday. Keeping Sunday instead of Sabbath is certainly a wrong habit (given that "wrong habit" means a habit of doing something incorrect -- keeping Sunday, as opposed to a habit of doing something correct -- keeping Sabbath)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #102654
09/15/08 02:13 AM
09/15/08 02:13 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Are you suggesting that ignorantly not keeping the Sabbath becomes a wrong habit because he was ignorantly observing Sunday? Are you saying ignorantly observing Sunday is a wrong habit? What makes it wrong? In what sense is it wrong?

What is the difference between a wrong habit and a sinful habit as it relates to cultivating sinful traits of character? Keeping in mind habits result in character, and character determines our eternal destiny in judgment.

Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #102665
09/15/08 03:18 AM
09/15/08 03:18 AM
Tom  Offline
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It's wrong because it isn't right. Sunday is not the Sabbath.

Actually these are your terms, not mine, so it would probably be good if you explained the difference.

You've been using "sinful habit" to mean something someone does that he knows is wrong. A "wrong habit" would be something that's wrong, regardless of whether or not the person knows it. This is how it seemed to me you've been using these terms at any rate.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #102691
09/15/08 06:09 PM
09/15/08 06:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Does ignorantly observing Sunday as the Sabbath result in a sinful habit? Or, is it just wrong? If so, what is the difference between wrong and sinful?

Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #102707
09/15/08 09:06 PM
09/15/08 09:06 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Not the way you have been using the term. Yes, just wrong. As you are using the terms, it appears to me, "sinful habit" means something one does habitually which one knows to be wrong. "Wrong habit" means doing a habit which is not correct. For example, keeping Sunday instead of Sabbath.

But, again, these are your terms, so perhaps you would like to define them. I'm just taking my best guess at what you mean by them.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #102727
09/16/08 02:53 PM
09/16/08 02:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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You introduced the word "wrong". I see the no difference between wrong, not right, and sinful. A sinful habit can be cultivated ignorantly. The difference so as far as guilt and condemnation is concerned has to do with accountability. Does God hold them accountable? Does He count them guilty? If so, then it is a sinful habit which must be confessed and crucified before they can experience the miracle of rebirth.

Ignorantly not keeping the Sabbath, whether they observe Sunday or not, represents a sin of ignorance, but it does not count as a sinful habit. Not doing something is not habit forming. Habits are formed by doing something.

Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #102748
09/16/08 06:15 PM
09/16/08 06:15 PM
Tom  Offline
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14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Ok, if I introduced it, I know what I meant. I meant a habit that is incorrect, regardless if what you know you are doing something wrong or not.

Since by "sinful habit" you mean a habit which someone knows to be wrong, how could it be cultivated ignorantly?

The problem is not with God holding people accountable, but with their being accountable. That is, the issue has to do with sin and the conscience, not with what God is doing.

Not doing something is habit forming. For example, not brushing your teeth after eating a meal. You could express this as a habit of doing something else other than brushing your teach if you wanted to, although this is clumsy, since the something else could be anything.

Not flossing is another example. If I go a few days without flossing, I get in the habit of not doing it.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #102826
09/17/08 04:28 PM
09/17/08 04:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Not keeping the Sabbath is not habit forming if you have no idea about Sabbath. Forming a habit requires conscious choice. Habits result in related traits of character, and character determines our eternal destiny in judgment.

Jesus will not change any habit or its related traits of character when He returns. Therefore, any habit or trait of character that will bar the gates of heaven must be confessed and crucified before death occurs if they hope to be in heaven.

Where we differ is which habits you believe do not have to be confessed and crucified before death occurs to be admitted to heaven. You have a long list of sinful habits and traits you believe will not keep resurrected people out of heaven.

You also believe they will simply leave off their habits after Jesus resurrects them and explains to them the truth. If He can explain it to them after they are resurrected and they willingly give them up, why can't He tell them before they die? Remember, they go into the grave with the same disposition they come out with.

Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #102834
09/17/08 07:49 PM
09/17/08 07:49 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Not keeping the Sabbath is not habit forming if you have no idea about Sabbath. Forming a habit requires conscious choice. Habits result in related traits of character, and character determines our eternal destiny in judgment.


Choosing to keep Sunday is a conscious decision. This is forming the habit of Sunday-keeping.

 Quote:
Jesus will not change any habit or its related traits of character when He returns.


Then I guess heaven will just have to accommodate the Sunday-keepers.

 Quote:
Where we differ is which habits you believe do not have to be confessed and crucified before death occurs to be admitted to heaven. You have a long list of sinful habits and traits you believe will not keep resurrected people out of heaven.


My only "list" includes whether or not the habit is something known to be wrong or not. It actually sounds to me like we agree on this point, since you've agreed with me (I think) that habit that do not involve doing something you know is wrong will not keep you from heaven. So our disagreement seems to stem from the idea you have that no violation of the last table of the law can be a sin of ignorance. I think on this point you're on your own.

 Quote:
You also believe they will simply leave off their habits after Jesus resurrects them and explains to them the truth.


I suspect you believe this too. Either that, or heaven will have to accommodate the Sunday-keepers.

 Quote:
If He can explain it to them after they are resurrected and they willingly give them up, why can't He tell them before they die?


Because he wasn't aware of it.

 Quote:
Remember, they go into the grave with the same disposition they come out with.


"Disposition" is a good word to use. Yes, the disposition is the same. But the knowledge is different.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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