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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#102592
09/13/08 05:34 PM
09/13/08 05:34 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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No, I wrote a response to it, but it looks like it didn't get sent.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#102598
09/13/08 07:49 PM
09/13/08 07:49 PM
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#102610
09/14/08 04:36 AM
09/14/08 04:36 AM
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Active Member 2012
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I wrote another one, but I don't see that either!
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Tom]
#102625
09/14/08 04:32 PM
09/14/08 04:32 PM
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Bummer. Any chance of addressing the posts?
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#102635
09/14/08 06:14 PM
09/14/08 06:14 PM
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Active Member 2012
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For the third time! Yes, I'll try again.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#102639
09/14/08 06:53 PM
09/14/08 06:53 PM
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Ok, third time. I'll see if this posts. I'm not writing as much as before, but I think this is adequate to cover the ideas of the post. If not, you can readdress. Free will does not empower people to change the choices they have already made. People are free to choose from a list of legitimate options, but once their choice is made they are not free to turn back time and choose a different option. God's timelessness has no bearing on people living in time. Our time is unaffected by God's timelessness. Time ticks on unmindful of man or God. This highlights the difficulty of the position you have been asserting. You claim these are decisions which "did happen," which "they made." Thus the future, to your position, is essentially the same as the past, in terms of things being unlaterable or how many options there are. For example, I'm sure you would agree that God can look back in the past, and see all the things which could have happened differently if different choices had been made. Also that God can look into the future, and see all the things which could have happened in the future had people made different choices (I'm putting this in the past tense, because that's the tense you have been using). Thus the future is essentially the same as the past. In neither the future nor the past can people choose to do anything different than what God has seen. So, to your view, there is no ontological difference between the future and the past. There is only a difference of perspective. God has one perspective and we have another. But ontologically, the future is the same as the past. For God, there is no difference. I disagree with this. I believe the future is ontologically different than the past, not just epistemologically different. That is, the difference between the past and the future transcends one's knowledge of them. They are fundamentally different. How are they different? They are different in that the past is fixed but the future isn't. Even God cannot alter the past. However He, and we, can impact the future, and cause it to be different than it would have been had we not acted. We can chose between different options. This is not possible in relation to the past. We cannot impact the past.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#102640
09/14/08 07:30 PM
09/14/08 07:30 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Tom, the angels who lived prior to Lucifer's rebellion were as acquainted with God's love and glory as FMAs could be. At that time. Not for any time. After the cross, for example, they became more acquainted with God's love and character. So much so that there was nothing else God could do to recommend His love once they decided to rebel. What Jesus demonstrated on the cross would not have prevented the angels from rebelling if it had been revealed to them before they rebelled. Otherwise, God certainly would have revealed it in an attempt to circumvent rebellion. The fact it wasn't revealed beforehand is evidence of this conclusion.
Since it would not have prevented angels from rebelling, why do you think it makes the loyal angels more secure against rebelling? Because the SOP quotes make this clear. Again, the love of God was more than sufficient to motivate and empower the loyal angels to side with Jesus, to not side with Satan and rebel against God. The fact they didn't side with Satan is evidence of this conclusion.
Since there was nothing more God do that He hadn't already done to recommend His love to the angels it means there was nothing more God could do. The cross did not, therefore, add something that wasn't already well known to the angels. You're overlooking that things change over time. That is, the fact that the angels knew all that could be known about God at one point of time does not mean they knew all that could be know about God at any point of time. Indeed, such a conclusion would mean that God were not infinite. Their knowledge of God is continually growing. That the cross changed things is made clear by the statements I've been quoting. I'll quote some more at the end of this post. If God had withheld some revelation of Himself that could have prevented angels from rebelling then God is guilty of a grievous sin, a serious sin of omission.
"Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him." {DA 761.5} It looks like the error in your reasoning is that you are assuming that because God held nothing back that this means the cross did not add anything to their knowledge. This doesn't follow. It may well be that showing them the cross at the time Satan rebelled would not have changed things. I agree with your logic that God would have done anything possible to save the angels, so I agree with you that if that could have saved them, He would have done that. However, the fact that it could not have saved them at the time of Satan's rebellion does not imply it could not secure them later. Indeed, we know for a fact that it *did* secure them later, as this is what the Spirit of Prophecy tells us. "That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. (QOD 680)...The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven (BTS December 1, 1907)...The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those who shall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb." (The Signs of the Times, December 30, 1889) It was in order that the heavenly universe might see the conditions of the covenant of redemption that Christ bore the penalty in behalf of the human race. The throne of Justice must be eternally and forever made secure, even tho the race be wiped out, and another creation populate the earth. By the sacrifice Christ was about to make, all doubts would be forever settled, and the human race would be saved if they would return to their allegiance. Christ alone could restore honor to God’s government. The cross of Calvary would be looked upon by the unfallen worlds, by the heavenly universe, by Satanic agencies, by the fallen race, and every mouth would be stopped....Who is able to describe the last scenes of Christ’s life on earth, His trial in the judgment hall, His crucifixion? Who witnessed these scenes?–The heavenly universe, God the Father, Satan and his angels." (The Signs of the Times, July 12, 1899) To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished....Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion." (The Desire of Ages 758) This is probably enough. These quotes bring out that the cross did indeed secure the angels, and unfallen worlds, and that by the cross things were learned that were not known apart from it.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Tom]
#102656
09/15/08 01:28 AM
09/15/08 01:28 AM
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Even God cannot alter the past. How do you know He hasn't? God is timeless and not bound by our time and space constraints. That is, the fact that the angels knew all that could be known about God at one point of time does not mean they knew all that could be known about God at any point of time. This begs the question - If angels knew what they know about God now would they have chosen not to rebel? However, the fact that it could not have saved them at the time of Satan's rebellion does not imply it could not secure them later. Is it a fact it could not have prevented them from rebelling? What prevented the loyal angels from rebelling? Why wasn't the same thing sufficient to empower the evil angels from falling? Why didn't the loyal angels decide to rebel during the time between the fall of the evil angels and before Jesus died on the cross? Why were the loyal angels ready to destroy the evil angels before Jesus died on the cross?
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#102667
09/15/08 02:37 AM
09/15/08 02:37 AM
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Active Member 2012
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T:Even God cannot alter the past.
M:How do you know He hasn't? God is timeless and not bound by our time and space constraints. You think God has altered the past? T:That is, the fact that the angels knew all that could be known about God at one point of time does not mean they knew all that could be known about God at any point of time.
M:This begs the question - If angels knew what they know about God now would they have chosen not to rebel? Could you clarify this please? Are you talking about the angels that rebelled? Are you asking if the rebel angels knew about God what they know about him now if they would have rebelled? If that's you question, yes, they would have rebelled. Is it a fact it could not have prevented them from rebelling? As you pointed out, God would have done anything to save them. So assuming you were correct, yes, it is a fact. What prevented the loyal angels from rebelling? Nothing. They weren't prevented from rebelling. Why wasn't the same thing sufficient to empower the evil angels from falling? It was. Why didn't the loyal angels decide to rebel during the time between the fall of the evil angels and before Jesus died on the cross? Why would they? Why were the loyal angels ready to destroy the evil angels before Jesus died on the cross? What's the motivation for this question?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Tom]
#102693
09/15/08 05:24 PM
09/15/08 05:24 PM
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TE: You think God has altered the past?
MM: The past according to who?
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TE: Are you asking if the rebel angels knew about God what they know about him now if they would have rebelled? If that's you question, yes, they would have rebelled.
MM: How do you know?
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TE: They weren't prevented from rebelling.
MM: What motivated them not to rebel?
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TE: Why would they?
MM: Because they were no more secure against evil than the angels before the fall.
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TE: What's the motivation for this question?
MM: If they were ready to destroy the evil angels before Jesus died on the cross it leads me to wonder how long ago were they ready to do it? I've gotten the impression from you that if the evil angels had died before the cross the holy angels would have feared God and would have eventually rebelled against Him. But in the following quote she makes it clear the holy angels were ready to destroy the world even before Jesus' incarnation:
Before Christ's first advent, the sin of refusing to conform to God's law had become widespread. Apparently Satan's power was growing; his warfare against heaven was becoming more and more determined. A crisis had been reached. With an intense interest God's movements were watched by the heavenly angels. Would He come forth from His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity? Would He send fire or flood to destroy them? All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebellious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, "Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion." {RC 58.4}
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