The Bible doesn’t bring the guidelines given to Adam, or to Noah! It only brings the guidelines given to the Israelites, which, of course, are the same as those given previously, because God doesn’t change! So we depend on the OC for that list – this is my point! The same is true about the 10 commandments. The OC has passed away, but it does bring to our knowledge some guidelines which expressed the will of God for all times. They existed before the OC and will remain valid as long as we are in this world.


Scott,

After sin man’s character and God’s character were out of harmony. Man lost the capacity to discern clearly God’s will. The law written in the heart was almost obliterated. Man needed a clear and objective external standard showing him sin – that’s why the law, expressed in the form of ten clear commandments was given. Even after man is converted he still needs that standard, for the sinful heart is deceitful above all things. Just take a look at what happened with David and with Solomon. So, the 10 commandments didn’t become obsolete – they will last as long as we are sinners – they will last till heaven and earth pass away.

Simple. He could have said that fishes that ate other fishes/animals and/or that scavenger fishes were excluded. We can't classify them as unclean if the Bible classifies them as clean.


Yes. Maybe their bodies have a special way to eliminate toxins, or to not retain toxins.

I agree with everything you said. That might be a first! We actually might be communicating!

I’ve always said that the man who is unconverted needs the law. It is only obsolete for those who have found Christ. The OT law is also symbolic of a condition of man. The man who doesn’t understand God or know Him and believes that God needs to be appeased by works is symbolically under the OC. The man who knows God and depends fully on God’s grace is symbolically under the NC. One has not been converted by God’s love therefore needs the law to try and contain his out of control passions and the other is living in the light of God’s love as the Spirit tames their rebellion with gifts and fruit. The written law to the converted man is child's play and the Spirit to the unconverted man is insanity.

Waggoner says that the covenants are not just a matter of dispensation, but a matter of condition.

scott
]

But this rule would suffer the same problems as any other one. There would be exceptions for this too.



I'm having difficulty understanding what your point is. You originally said:



If you're talking about classifying an animal as "clean" or "unclean" on the basis of what's in Scripture, sure we have enough knowledge. We just look it up in Scripture.

So you must be making some other point. Is your point that piranhas must be healthy for you, since they're on the clean list given to the Israelites?

Any list that would cover every possible animal that would be healthy or unhealthy to eat in the world would be incredibly long. And what would be the point to explaining to Israelites that piranhas are not healthy to eat?



Maybe they're not healthy to eat and they weren't included in a list because they weren't an animal known to the Israelites.

Hey, this is good stuff! How'd you think of it? );

Someone from Kansas told me!!!!

Of course he moved to NY!

scott

Hi Rosangela,

This is actually the paragraph that I completely agree with! Those things you call “guidelines” I call “principles”.

Would you agree that if we glean the principles out of the OC we would find the same principles in the NC?

And would you agree that those “guidelines” in the OC are expressed in the lowest common denominator or should I say the minimum standard?

An example would be like a building code that demands we build to minimum standard, but a conscientious excellent builder might choose to upgrade the electrical wiring, build a stronger footing, and take precautions that are over and above the minimum standard. He might choose to build to a higher standard! So rather than building to the letter of the law (code book) he wants much more than a house that barely passes code, he want a house that sets a new standard of excellence.

This is how I see the OC (including the 10C). It was a mile marker for emancipated slaves after 400 years of abuse, but for the converted Christian who knows and loves God it is obsolete in that it only sets a minimum standard. Not to have idols is a far cry from loving God. Not killing is light years behind loving our enemies and doing good to those who despitefully use us. God’s principle behind telling us not to kill is the same as the principle behind telling us to love, but the principle of love is has no limits of expression.

And please note the fact that an excellent builder would never dip below the minimum standard in quality.

scott

Yes, when you cited the other paragraph I thought there must be some mistake on your part, so I allowed you some more time to reflect about it.


Yes, because God does not change.


The ten commandments are indeed expressed in the minimum standard.


My view is somewhat different from yours in this point. The ten commandments are expressed in the minimum standard but they do not set a minimum standard. The opposite is true. As David said, almost 3,000 years ago,

Psalms 119:96 I have seen a limit to all perfection, but thy commandment is exceedingly broad.

Spurgeon's comment on this verse:

“But thy commandment is exceeding broad.” When the exceeding breadth of the law is known the notion of perfection in the flesh vanishes: that law touches every act, word, and thought, and is of such a spiritual nature that it judges the motives, desires, and emotions of the soul. It reveals a perfection which convicts us for shortcomings as well as for transgressions, and does not allow us to make up for deficiencies in one direction by special carefulness in others. The divine ideal of holiness is far too broad for us to hope to cover all its wide area, and yet it is no broader than it ought to be. Who would wish to have an imperfect law? Nay, its perfection is its glory; but it is the death of all glorying in our own perfection. There is a breadth about the commandment which has never been met to the full by a corresponding breadth of holiness in any mere man while here below; only in Jesus do we see it fully embodied. The law is in all respects a perfect code; each separate commandment of it is far-reaching in its hallowed meaning, and the whole ten cover all, and leave no space wherein to please our passions. We may well adore the infinity of divine holiness, and then measure ourselves by its standard, and bow before the Lord in all lowliness, acknowledging how far we fall short of it.

I share the same opinion as Spurgeon, so I do not share the view that the law is imperfect and obsolete. In order for it to be limitless, it had to be expressed in the mininum standard.

I agree with Spurgeon too! The problem is that the 10Cs do not express the fullness of the true law of love. Spurgeon isn't talking about the 10Cs, but the law of love. Spurgen is talking about the full expression of God's character like we see in Jesus.

Paul says about the 10Cs in

Ministry of death written on stone?

Doesn't sound like Spurgeon to me!

scott

Tom, what is the difference between "under [obligation to obey] the law" and "in the law"? Following are three versions:

Romans
2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned under law shall be judged by law. (RV)

2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. (NIV)

2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law. (NASB)

Romans
3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God. (RV)

3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. (NIV)

3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God. (NASB)

1 Corinthians
3:19 To them that are without law, as without law, not being without law to God, but under law to Christ, that I might gain them that are without law. (RV)

3:19 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. (NIV)

3:19 To those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. (NASB)