Scott,

Why is the law called the ministry of death in the OC?

Hi Rosangela,

The same reason it became obsolete and ready to pass away once Christ came and gave us the unfiltered view of righteousness.

scott

Scott,

Did it lead to death? What is the specific reason for this?

By the way, you said



But in the quote I provided, he says



Which shows that he is talking about the 10Cs.

Hi Rosangela,

They were given to lead us to Christ and there is where we are to find salvation. Once we see Christ His glory is so much greater of an expression of God's loving character than the written law that it has no glory at all. As their glory fades in Christ they must decrease and He must increase. For those who hold onto them as a standard of righteousness they become a stumbling block because Christ has become our standard now.

Just think how much time is spent talking nonsense like can the law can save us, what is clean and unclean, are the feast still valid today, is it sinning to eat meat, what about circumcision, etc. etc. These things were settled 2000 years ago and it was the anti-Christ creeping into the church that started asking the questions all over again. We are not saved by law keeping! That is perfectly plain!

scott

Then he disagrees with Paul!!!!

scott

Scott, I didn't understand your comment in regards to clean and unclean being settled 2,000 years ago.

I've been mostly just listening, as I've enjoyed the discussion between you and Rosangela. I agree with some points that both of you are making.

In regards to the law, I think Rosangela would agree with you that a function of the law is to lead us to Christ, and the Christ is a fuller revelation of God's character than the law. However, this isn't the only purpose of the law. I think this is a point she has been making.

When we come to Christ, we see the law in a new way. Not as something to do in order to gain God's or as something which condemns us, but as an expression of God's will, revealed fully in Christ. We see, for example, that "Thou shalt not kill" includes not thinking ill of one's fellow, or that adultery incorporates an impure thought. Anyway, these are negative ways of looking at the law, as prohibitions. In Christ we see the law revealed in a positive way, as not simply what not to do but what to do; i.e. what being like God looks like.

Anyway, it seems to me that to some extent you are talking past one another. However, there are some true differences as well, so it's been an interesting conversation!

Hi Tom,

Fair question!

I’m talking about clean and unclean (and the other things mentioned) being a matter of law. Before the OC the mentioned items were a matter of health and conscience. 2000 years they reverted back to a matter of health and conscience for men who know Christ.

Make sense?



I agree with Rosangela in principle, but I believe that the way she represents the 10Cs as not part of the Law that was done away with poses many problems for us as Adventists. We don’t keep Sabbath because it is a matter of law. We keep it because we love Jesus. If we keep it to appease God (or God’s law) then it, keeping the law, becomes an abomination and we are rejecting God’s grace. This is the point of Paul’s writings! There has never been anything wrong with the law, but God took it away and replaced it with Christ. He fulfilled the law . . . all of it! Focus on the 10Cs has a tendency to led one into thinking they can actually keep them and this weakens Christ’s ability to reach them with grace. Remember that the law condemns us and testifies against us. Christ freed us from the condemnation of the law!

I’m talking about converted men. The unconverted world still needs the law to keep the peace. Any attempt of a believer to keep the law to merit something from God belittles the gospel and rejects grace. But for a worldly man to attempt to keep the law will eventually lead him to Christ where he will find grace and be freed from the condemnation of the law by being taken out from under it.



Amen!

scott

I don't think it's accurate to say the law, including the 10 commandments, was done away with. I like the idea of ceremonialism. Rosangela brought up this idea from a quote, I think perhaps of A. T. Jones. One could say that ceremonialism was done away with by the cross. This is actually true for all people at all times, meaning simply that when we come to Christ, we become Christians, children of God, with the law written in the heart, as opposed to religionists, if that's a word, or Pharisees, stony-hearted people who go throw the motions of keeping the law, or acting religious, out of fear of punishment or hope of reward.

In a formal sense, ceremonialism was done away with at the cross, in the sense that the formal ceremonial system was done away with. But I believe Richardson, and Jones, are correct in bringing out the issue Paul is dealing with is deeper than simply the ceremonial law being done away with. I think "ceremonialism" captures the concept well.

Now the 10 C's can certainly be included in this. So we can say that ceremonialism, which includes the 10 C's, is done away with by the cross. Instead of "ceremonialism" one could use the "Old Covenant," as you have been using, and this works as well.

However, we can't say the law was done away with, because that means something different. When the Evangelicals say the law was done away with, they mean that there is no need for man to keep it, which is untrue. It is just as necessary for the law to be kept as it ever was. Only law-keepers will be in heaven. Rev. 20 makes that clear, as well as many other passages.

Of course, only those who have the law written in the heart are law-keepers, and the only way to have the law written in the heart is to be converted, by faith in Jesus Christ, so this is exactly equivalent to saying that only those who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved.

So rather than saying the law was done away with, including the 10 C's, I think it would be better to say something else, which doesn't have the baggage that the phrase "the law was done away with" has. For example, one could say that ceremonialism was done away with, or the Old Covenant was done away with, and one can explain how the 10 C's play a part in this.

I can't remember who quoted Ps. 119 in saying the law is exceeding broad, maybe Rosangela. This is a wonderful thought, that in Christ the beauty of the law shines through, and it becomes not something to do in order to be saved, or to avoid the judgment, but the working out of the principles of love as revealed in Christ.

Hi Tom,

Here is where we run into problems with Evangelicals. They quote the Bible that says the law was done away with, nailed to the cross, a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ that we are no longer under, obsolete, and “ready to pass away” and we argue with them, telling them that it isn’t the whole law, just the ceremonial part! Then we break the law into separate parts and keep a little tithing here, and a little “clean and unclean” over there, and the 10Cs over here, and the OC becomes a smorgasbord or buffet where some decide the feast are still in, others circumcision, others, like the Catholics, keep the human priesthood, etc. etc.

There are some who teach that since the law was done away with that our past, present, and future sins are dealt because they were laid on Christ and He took our punishment. These believe that since we are acquitted of sin that we can sin with impunity because of our position “in Christ”. Antinomianism is the baby of penal substitution atonement model.

I, however, don’t believe that justification is simply a matter of heavenly book keeping as do Evangelicals. I believe that the heavenly sanctuary holds a record of what is happening in our minds. That being true, justification is when we are set right with God because we saw His love at the cross and surrendered to His love. We made peace with God. That newly established relationship we share with our Creator is where we find the strength to overcome sin and become law abiding citizens of heaven. His law is written in our hearts.

When I say “the law was done away with” I’m only quoting the Bible. I’m saying what the Bible says and I keep being accused of saying what the Evangelicals are saying. I’m not going to argue with the Evangelicals that the law hasn’t been done away with because that would be pretty futile since the Bible says it has. I argue with them that justification is setting the sanctuary of the mind right with God and not a Supreme Court acquittal. Adventists “kick against the prick” by teaching righteousness is taught through the law rather than through God’s graciousness revealed in Christ.

One definition of insanity is to keep doing what we are doing and expect different results. We do ourselves, and God, no favors by misquoting the Bible to fit our theology. Teaching clean and unclean and Sabbath keeping as if they were a punitive law that is left over from the OC is bad theology and a misuse of the Word.

scott

Scott, it sounds like you are saying the "law was done away with" means the law is written in our hearts and minds when we behold Jesus. If this is what you are saying, and please correct me if I've misunderstood you, then does that mean the moral law and the law of Moses are written in hearts and minds when people are reborn? If so, how does it translate into day to day living? What does it look like in living form? By their fruits ye shall know them. How would I know one if I saw one?