I think there is a literal fire that burns the wicked up after they are dead. I think the fire that causes them suffering for many hours or many days before dying is not literal.

Please note the context:

1. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts."

2. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds."

In the immediate context of the day fire burns sinners up to stubble she says some are destroyed quickly while others suffer many days.

Again, please note the context:

1. "While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield."

2. "The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth."

In the immediate context of God's "consuming fire" she says the righteous are safe whereas the wicked are consumed followed by the purification of the earth.

Given these facts, why do you assume one aspect of God's "consuming fire" is literal and one aspect is not literal?

Both her account and what Revelation describes are an author describing a vision. If one went to Revelation and tried the approach you are taking, one would wind up with something like "The Late Great Planet Earth." For example, Revelation says that death was thrown into the lake of fire. It says the beast is in the lake of fire, and the false prophet. These statements are not literally true, as you can't literally through death or the beast or the false prophet into a lake of fire since these things are concepts, not individuals.

I believe that to understand what's happening in the final judgment requires a lot of thought and is deeply spiritual. To rightly understand it requires a right conception of God's character and of the cross.

I believe one needs to consider all the evidence, including the passages I've cited many times from GC and DA. I've not seen you try to include these other passages in your belief of what happens. You appear look with tunnel vision at this one description, which is superficially easier to understand, without, as far as I can tell, giving any weight to other passages where she lays out the principles involved, and relates what happens to God's character. Especially GC 541-543 is rich in its description of God's character and in relating the judgment to it.

In DA 764, she describes how the destruction of the wicked relates to the death of Christ. Elsewhere she says that every truth is illuminated by the cross. Without the cross, we cannot understand the destruction of the wicked. Yet your explanations do not mention the cross. You appear to see no connection between these two events. Or, if you do, it's not important, because you don't mention it.

It is easy to reject out of hand your idea that God will cause the wicked to suffer by burning them with fire because that's not in harmony with His character. God's character was fully revealed by Jesus Christ. Can you imagine Jesus Christ setting someone on fire and then keeping him alive so He could suffer more? To ask such a question is to answer it, and removes the possibility of the interpretation you are suggesting.

Tom, no amount of human logic or reasoning will make the facts go away. You are convinced God will not employ literal fire until after sinners die of . . . (actually I'm not sure what you believe causes them to die).

The idea that God is too loving to use literal fire to causes sinners to die denies the history of God's handling of sinners. On several occasions He used literal fire to punish and kill sinners. Do you agree? If so, then why do you find it so appalling that He will do it again at the end of time?

What does it matter to you if God burns them alive in fire and they die right away or if they suffer longer before they die? Either way being burned alive is painful. In both cases God uses literal fire to punish them before it kills them. Listen:

"[Satan] will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. {FLB 213.4}

"I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. {EW 294.1}

"Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." . . . In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. {GC 673.1}

The cleansing, consuming "fires" and "flames", in which sinners are "punished", "destroyed" some "quickly" while others "suffered longer". The language is too clear to misunderstand. If the prophet wanted her readers to interpret her description symbolically she would have said so.

There is no legitimate reason to think her description isn't literal. The fires and flames that destroy some sinners quickly is the same fires and flames that cause others to suffer longer. It is also the same fires and flames that burn up the rubble and rubbish of earth. You cannot have the fires and flames start off symbolic and end up literal. It's either one or the other. It cannot be both.

My! I've probably quoted this 100 times:



Also this:



This, as I've often pointed out, makes it clear that the wicked are not killed by literal fire as the same thing which kills the wicked gives life to the righteous. Literal fire does not give life to the righteous.

But the main point is that God's character simply doesn't allow Him to torture people. Ellen White uses the word "torture" here:



I've asked you what the difference of your view is to this, excluding the duration, and you haven't pointed out anything yet. In fact, the last part of the last sentence is almost word for word what you've quoted in the past



You've expressed this sentiment many times that while the wicked are burning, the righteous will rejoice. Yet what comes next?





Even if the deaths of the wicked in Sodom and Gomorrah and other incidents of Scripture were exactly as you understand things, this would still be night and day different than what you are suggesting takes place in the judgment. In Sodom and Gomorrah God did not keep the wicked alive for hours or days so they could burn. Human beings die within seconds when engulfed by flames.



It's hard to believe someone can ask this. You don't see the difference in suffering pain for a few seconds due to the natural result of being burned by fire and being burned alive for days? In the first case, it's not something God is doing to them, and the duration is very brief. In the second God is doing it to them, and the duration is a long time.

Just imagine people shrieking in pain, writhing in agony. I ask, along with Ellen White: What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing this torture; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy!



Sure there are. I've pointed them out many times. One is that it disagrees with other passages she's written on the subject, which I've quoted. You don't account for these other passages. Secondly, and most importantly, such an interpretation is impossible given God's character revealed by Jesus Christ. I'm dumbfounded that you don't see this. Where in Christ's life or teachings do see a Being who would burn people alive for days? Who did Christ ever treat like this? Satan, yes, we see him treating Christ like this, but Christ, no. Even when Christ was being tortured He prayed for those torturing Him, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

The same consuming fire that destroys the wicked burns up the rubble and rubbish of earth. Obviously, then, the consuming fire of God's radiant glory literally causes material things to burn up. The reason it doesn't burn up the righteous, who are abiding safely within the walls of the New Jerusalem, is for the same reason it has never burned up holy, sinless beings.

One reason sinful flesh and sinless flesh react differently when exposed to the radiant glory of God is because they are made of different material. Sinful flesh naturally bursts into flames when exposed to the radiant glory of God. That's why Jesus had to clothe His divinity with humanity. That's why God said, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Cor 15:53) Not even Jesus, while inhabiting sinful flesh, could appear in the unveiled presence of God's radiant glory.


There is nothing wicked about God punishing the wicked in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. There is nothing evil, bad, or wrong about it. It is merciful and righteous. God can punish people with fire without it being considered torture because it is consistent with the principles mercy and justice. Listen:

"The reconciliation of mercy and justice did not involve any compromise with sin, or ignore any claim of justice; but by giving to each divine attribute its ordained place, mercy could be exercised in the punishment of sinful, impenitent man without destroying its clemency or forfeiting its compassionate character, and justice could be exercised in forgiving the repenting transgressor without violating its integrity. {1SM 260.2}

Is it appropriate for sinless beings to laugh and rejoice when God executes justice and judgment? Yes, of course. Listen:

Psalm
2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psalm 37:12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
37:13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

Psalm
52:5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of [thy] dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah.
52:6 The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him:
52:7 Lo, [this is] the man [that] made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, [and] strengthened himself in his wickedness.

Proverbs
1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.
18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:


The point is God burned them alive. Do you agree? God has, and will, used literal fire to burn people alive. For example:

Genesis
19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Exodus
9:23 And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
9:25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that [was] in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.

Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Numbers
11:1 And [when] the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard [it]; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed [them that were] in the uttermost parts of the camp.
11:2 And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.
11:3 And he called the name of the place Taberah: because the fire of the LORD burnt among them.

Numbers
16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
26:10 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.

Deuteronomy
9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God [is] he which goeth over before thee; [as] a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Psalm
50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
83:14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
83:15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.
97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
106:17 The earth opened and swallowed up Dathan, and covered the company of Abiram.
106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.
140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Matthew
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark
9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

John
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

2 Thessalonians
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Jude
1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation
16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I have repeatedly explained how I reconcile those other passages. Yes, the wicked will suffer emotional agony during judgment. It is akin to fire. But they get over it and rally together to take New Jerusalem by force. Thus, it is obvious that the agony they experience during judgment does not cause them to die. It is not until God rains down fire from above and raises fire up from below that the wicked suffer in the fires and flames.

This doesn't make any sense. There's no reason why the fact that the same fire that burns up the wicked burns up the rubble and rubbish of the earth should mean this fire must be the fire of God's radiant glory, must less that this should be obvious.




The issue is a spiritual one, MM, not a physical one. If the wicked had bodies just like the righteous, they would still die. Satan and his angelic followers are not comprised of this "material" you are speaking of, yet they die in the same manner as the unrighteous humans. Why? Because their death is a spiritual death, with spiritual causes.



You've often asserted this, but not provided any evidence for this. Do you know of any?

MM, regarding GC 536, it seems like you're simply agreeing with what I said, that your view is the same as that presented there. You are echoing this thought:



And her reply applies:





No, that's not the point. Whoever died by fire in Sodom and Gomorrah died due to the causes of fire. They were not "burned alive" by God. "Burned alive" is like what those in Medieval times did in burning heretics to the stake. It has nothing to do with Sodom and Gomorrah.

None of the Scriptures you quote apply either, because none of them have God burning people alive, keeping them alive so that they can suffer more pain.

The problem here goes deeper than how to apply Scripture. It goes to the fundamental issue of what God is like. Is He capable of acting like a sadist? Will He torture people who choose not follow Him?

Another problem is the question of what kind of followers such pictures of God will produce.

You've got this backwards.



They don't "get over it." They die. It is the light of the glory of God, given by the "revealer of God's character" that will "slay the wicked." This is after their attack on the city.

This same revelation of truth, by the "revealer of God's character," gives life to the righteous.

It looks like we are in disagreement, Tom.