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Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #103621
10/14/08 04:16 PM
10/14/08 04:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
In reference to the expression "the glory of God". It does not always refer to His character. Listen:

All that is given for the salvation of souls and the glory of God, is invested in the most successful enterprise in this life and in the life to come. {CS 342.1}

Deduct every action which would benefit no one, . . . and how little remains of willing service, performed for the glory of God! {OHC 187.4}

If we only realized that the glory of God is round about us, that heaven is nearer earth than we suppose, we should have a heaven in our homes while preparing for the heaven above. {7BC 961.2}

The glory of God is displayed in His handiwork. Here are mysteries that the mind will become strong in searching out. {4T 581.1}

The cloud is dark in itself, but when filled with the light, it is turned to the brightness of gold, for the glory of God is upon it. {TSB 259.3}

Whatever is done to the glory of God is to be done with cheerfulness, not with sadness and gloom. {MB 88.1}

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #103622
10/14/08 04:18 PM
10/14/08 04:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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PS - Tom, please explain how God's character causes the wicked to burn up and die.

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #103623
10/14/08 05:07 PM
10/14/08 05:07 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Judgment knowledge of their sinfulness is not what causes them to die. They are still very much alive by the time God rains down fire upon them. It is this fire, literal fire, that causes them to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness - not judgment knowledge of their loss and sinfulness. Neither are they destroyed when exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus.

A) They are exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus on two different occasions and it does not destroy them. It happens before they are judged, before they suffer agony over their sinfulness. Thus, exposure to the radiant glory of Jesus is not what causes them to suffer and die. In fact, in stead of causing them agony and death, it causes them to praise Him. See 1 and 5 above.

B) They are judged and deemed worthy of death. Judgment knowledge of their loss and sinfulness does destroy them. They are still very much alive afterward. See 7-16 above.

C) While they are raging against Satan and his agents of deception, God rains down literal fire upon them. Each sinner suffers in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness and then dies. Satan is the last to die. See 17, 18, 20, and 21 above.

D) The righteous praise God for punishing and destroying them according to their sinfulness. See 19 above.


This doesn't tie in with DA 764 or DA 107-108, or GC 543.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #103624
10/14/08 05:16 PM
10/14/08 05:16 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, regarding "glory" I'm not seeing your difficult. There's a plain statement which says "The glory of God is His character." I don't understand why you are choosing to disregard this. Actually, I do think I understand why, but I think this is an unfounded action your are taking.

Let's consider one of the statements you quoted:

 Quote:
The glory of God is displayed in His handiwork. Here are mysteries that the mind will become strong in searching out. {4T 581.1}


Why would you think this doesn't mean, "The character of God is displayed in His handiwork."?

When Moses appeared to God, and asked Him to reveal His glory, what did God do? He declared His character, right? Thus God perceives His glory to be His character.

When Christ said He glorified His Father, what did He mean? He meant He had manifested His character.

 Quote:
In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.


 Quote:
PS - Tom, please explain how God's character causes the wicked to burn up and die.


From GC 543:

 Quote:
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.


The glory of God here is His character, which is clear not only from Ellen White's explanation elsewhere that this is the case, but by the context as well.

 Quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)


This speaks of God's glory, His character, a consuming fire, destroying sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #103693
10/15/08 01:43 PM
10/15/08 01:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Here's another non-character reference to God's glory. In this case the glory of God lightens New Jerusalem.

Revelation
21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

The same bright light that radiates from God's physical presence is what causes the wicked to suffer and die when Jesus arrives the second time.

2 Thessalonians
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Zechariah
14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

What you're saying about it makes it seem like knowledge of God's character causes them to burst into flames and die.

Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #103694
10/15/08 01:47 PM
10/15/08 01:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
 Quote:
Judgment knowledge of their sinfulness is not what causes them to die. They are still very much alive by the time God rains down fire upon them. It is this fire, literal fire, that causes them to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness - not judgment knowledge of their loss and sinfulness. Neither are they destroyed when exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus.

A) They are exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus on two different occasions and it does not destroy them. It happens before they are judged, before they suffer agony over their sinfulness. Thus, exposure to the radiant glory of Jesus is not what causes them to suffer and die. In fact, in stead of causing them agony and death, it causes them to praise Him. See 1 and 5 above.

B) They are judged and deemed worthy of death. Judgment knowledge of their loss and sinfulness does destroy them. They are still very much alive afterward. See 7-16 above.

C) While they are raging against Satan and his agents of deception, God rains down literal fire upon them. Each sinner suffers in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness and then dies. Satan is the last to die. See 17, 18, 20, and 21 above.

D) The righteous praise God for punishing and destroying them according to their sinfulness. See 19 above.


This doesn't tie in with DA 764 or DA 107-108, or GC 543.

Sure it does. It speaks to the fact the wicked are exposed to the glory of God without being destroyed. Such exposure is not the only thing that causes the wicked to suffer and die. God also rains down fire and raises up fire. It is a union of these three sources of fire that cause the wicked to suffer and die.

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #103705
10/15/08 08:23 PM
10/15/08 08:23 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, when I said it doesn't tie in, I mean you offered no explanation as to how DA 764, or DA 107,108 or GC 543 tie in; that is, you haven't taken these texts into consideration, as far as I can see.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #103724
10/16/08 02:27 PM
10/16/08 02:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, you have yet to explain how God's unveiled character causes sinners to suffer and die. How does God make them understand His character so that it causes them to suffer and die? Are unpardonable sinners capable of comprehending something as pure and sinless as God's character? Also, how does His character lighten New Jerusalem so that sunshine isn't needed to light it?

PS - I have explained how DA 764, 107, 108 and GC 543 tie in. It's just that you rejected it.

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #103733
10/16/08 04:45 PM
10/16/08 04:45 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
No, I haven't rejected it -- yet \:\)

I don't know what it is. As far as I can tell, you've omitted these passages from your explanation. What post addresses these passages please?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #103735
10/16/08 05:02 PM
10/16/08 05:02 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Tom, you have yet to explain how God's unveiled character causes sinners to suffer and die.


I'm just quoting from Ellen White. I'm not aware that she discusses the mechanics here. She says the wicked place themselves so out of harmony with God's character (or God) that He becomes a consuming fire to them, that His glory (His glory is His character) will destroy them. She says the light of the glory of God, which is the revelation of His character (light=revelation; glory=character; next sentence speaks of Christ as the "revealer of God's character"), the same thing that gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. She says the glory of God, who is love (another reference to His character) will destroy them.

These are the facts I've been pointing out.

 Quote:
How does God make them understand His character so that it causes them to suffer and die?


Be the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 Quote:
Are unpardonable sinners capable of comprehending something as pure and sinless as God's character?


They are enough to know that they don't want God or heaven. GC 543 explains this (where it discusses how their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves).

 Quote:
Also, how does His character lighten New Jerusalem so that sunshine isn't needed to light it?


When God revealed His character to Moses, his face glowed, so much that he had to wear a veil. How did God's character do that? I'm sure I can't say how, but I know it did happen.

 Quote:
How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in a ... burning hell ... While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God....

What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing ... tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of ... misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy! ...

When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. (GC 536)


I've asked you if there's any difference between your view and the presented in GC 536, other than the duration of the punishment, and I've understood you to say there isn't (if this is incorrect, please tell me what you see differently), so I took out the references to duration, so it would be in line with your position. How would you answer the questions she raises?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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