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Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #103285
09/29/08 03:26 AM
09/29/08 03:26 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
So long as Adam remained loyal to Heaven, all nature was in subjection to him. But when he rebelled against the divine law, the inferior creatures were in rebellion against his rule.


So Ellen White goofed here? Instead of "rebelled" she should have said "gambled"?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #103291
09/29/08 03:31 PM
09/29/08 03:31 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: asygo
And they were both deceived.

Paul wrote - "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Tim 2:14)

And Ellen wrote - Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as was Eve, and it was inexcusable in Adam to rashly transgress God's positive command. {Con 86.1}

From the moment that Christ entered the world, the whole confederacy of Satanic agencies was set at work to deceive and overthrow Him as Adam had been deceived and overthrown. {AG 162.2}

 Quote:
Eve yielded to temptation, and through her influence Adam also was deceived. They accepted the words of the serpent, that God did not mean what he said; they distrusted their Creator, and imagined that he was restricting their liberty, and that they might obtain great light and freedom by transgressing his law. {4SP 352.1}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #103461
10/07/08 06:01 PM
10/07/08 06:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
 Quote:
So long as Adam remained loyal to Heaven, all nature was in subjection to him. But when he rebelled against the divine law, the inferior creatures were in rebellion against his rule.

So Ellen White goofed here? Instead of "rebelled" she should have said "gambled"?

Why single out one quote? Why not take into consideration what is written elsewhere? There is more to the story. For example:

Paul wrote - And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Tim 2:14)

And Ellen wrote - Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as was Eve, and it was inexcusable in Adam to rashly transgress God's positive command. {Con 86.1}

But she also wrote - From the moment that Christ entered the world, the whole confederacy of Satanic agencies was set at work to deceive and overthrow Him as Adam had been deceived and overthrown. {AG 162.2}

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: asygo] #103462
10/07/08 06:02 PM
10/07/08 06:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: asygo
A: And they were both deceived.

M: Paul wrote - "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Tim 2:14)

And Ellen wrote - Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as was Eve, and it was inexcusable in Adam to rashly transgress God's positive command. {Con 86.1}

From the moment that Christ entered the world, the whole confederacy of Satanic agencies was set at work to deceive and overthrow Him as Adam had been deceived and overthrown. {AG 162.2}

A: "Eve yielded to temptation, and through her influence Adam also was deceived. They accepted the words of the serpent, that God did not mean what he said; they distrusted their Creator, and imagined that he was restricting their liberty, and that they might obtain great light and freedom by transgressing his law. {4SP 352.1}

Arnold, how do you explain the apparent discrepancy?

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #103467
10/07/08 10:45 PM
10/07/08 10:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
M:So long as Adam remained loyal to Heaven, all nature was in subjection to him. But when he rebelled against the divine law, the inferior creatures were in rebellion against his rule.

T:So Ellen White goofed here? Instead of "rebelled" she should have said "gambled"?

M:Why single out one quote?


First of all, this quote is germane to the subject matter. You claim Adam did not rebel, so a quote that says that he did is germane, as it disproves your assertion.

Secondly, you were presented with several quotes, not just one.

Third, are you aware of some quote that says that Adam "did not rebel" or that he "gambled"?

Regarding the rest of the quotes, what do they have to do with your disagreement of Ellen White's statement that Adam rebelled? None of them say, or imply, that Adam did not rebel, and none of them say, or imply, that Adam "gambled."

Also, supposing for the sake of argument that Adam did gamble, how would that help your case? Gambling is not opposed to rebelling.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #103491
10/09/08 01:33 AM
10/09/08 01:33 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: asygo
A: And they were both deceived.

M: Paul wrote - "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Tim 2:14)

And Ellen wrote - Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as was Eve, and it was inexcusable in Adam to rashly transgress God's positive command. {Con 86.1}

From the moment that Christ entered the world, the whole confederacy of Satanic agencies was set at work to deceive and overthrow Him as Adam had been deceived and overthrown. {AG 162.2}

A: "Eve yielded to temptation, and through her influence Adam also was deceived. They accepted the words of the serpent, that God did not mean what he said; they distrusted their Creator, and imagined that he was restricting their liberty, and that they might obtain great light and freedom by transgressing his law. {4SP 352.1}

Arnold, how do you explain the apparent discrepancy?

They were deceived in different ways.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: asygo] #103585
10/13/08 03:50 PM
10/13/08 03:50 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: asygo
A: And they were both deceived.

M: Paul wrote - "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Tim 2:14)

And Ellen wrote - Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as was Eve, and it was inexcusable in Adam to rashly transgress God's positive command. {Con 86.1}

From the moment that Christ entered the world, the whole confederacy of Satanic agencies was set at work to deceive and overthrow Him as Adam had been deceived and overthrown. {AG 162.2}

A: "Eve yielded to temptation, and through her influence Adam also was deceived. They accepted the words of the serpent, that God did not mean what he said; they distrusted their Creator, and imagined that he was restricting their liberty, and that they might obtain great light and freedom by transgressing his law. {4SP 352.1}

M: Arnold, how do you explain the apparent discrepancy?

A: They were deceived in different ways.

But Paul wrote plainly, too plainly to misunderstand - "Adam was not deceived." Doesn't it make more sense to assume Ellen's comments are in total agreement with Paul's unequivocal statement?

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #103586
10/13/08 04:00 PM
10/13/08 04:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
M:So long as Adam remained loyal to Heaven, all nature was in subjection to him. But when he rebelled against the divine law, the inferior creatures were in rebellion against his rule.

T:So Ellen White goofed here? Instead of "rebelled" she should have said "gambled"?

M:Why single out one quote?

T: First of all, this quote is germane to the subject matter. You claim Adam did not rebel, so a quote that says that he did is germane, as it disproves your assertion.

Secondly, you were presented with several quotes, not just one.

Third, are you aware of some quote that says that Adam "did not rebel" or that he "gambled"?

Regarding the rest of the quotes, what do they have to do with your disagreement of Ellen White's statement that Adam rebelled? None of them say, or imply, that Adam did not rebel, and none of them say, or imply, that Adam "gambled."

Also, supposing for the sake of argument that Adam did gamble, how would that help your case? Gambling is not opposed to rebelling.

Here is how the fall of Adam is described in the SOP:

Adam regretted that Eve had left his side, but now the deed was done. He must be separated from her whose society he had loved so well. How could he have it thus? His love for Eve was strong. And in utter discouragement he resolved to share her fate. He reasoned that Eve was a part of himself, and if she must die, he would die with her, for he could not bear the thought of separation from her. He lacked faith in his merciful and benevolent Creator. He did not think that God, who had formed him out of the dust of the ground into a living, beautiful form, and had created Eve to be his companion, could supply her place. After all, might not the words of this wise serpent be correct? Eve was before him, just as lovely and beautiful, and apparently as innocent, as before this act of disobedience. She expressed greater, higher love for him than before her disobedience, as the effects of the fruit she had eaten. He saw in her no signs of death. She had told him of the happy influence of the fruit, of her ardent love for him, and he decided to brave the consequences. He seized the fruit and quickly ate it, and like Eve, felt not immediately its ill effects. {SR 36.2}

1. Nowhere is the word "rebelled" used.
2. Resolving to share her fate is not rebellion.
3. Having a lack of faith is not rebellion.
4. Braving the consequences is a form of gambling.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #103587
10/13/08 04:22 PM
10/13/08 04:22 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
M: Arnold, how do you explain the apparent discrepancy?

A: They were deceived in different ways.

But Paul wrote plainly, too plainly to misunderstand - "Adam was not deceived." Doesn't it make more sense to assume Ellen's comments are in total agreement with Paul's unequivocal statement?

They are in total agreement. Paul said, "Adam was not deceived." EGW said, "Adam also was deceived." Yet, complete agreement.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #103588
10/13/08 04:24 PM
10/13/08 04:24 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. Nowhere is the word "rebelled" used.

It's in another book.

"he rebelled against the divine law" {PP 59.4}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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