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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Mountain Man] #103058
09/22/08 08:24 PM
09/22/08 08:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
You mentioned two passages. The one from 1 Cor 9:21 is not "under the law" in the Greek. Regarding the one from Rom. 3:19

 Quote:
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.

Within the Law. This is not the place to consider the force of the term "under the law," since it does not really occur here. It should be "in the law," as in Romans 2:12, for the Greek words are the same in both places. The words for "under the law" are entirely different. Why the translators have given us "under the law" in this place, and also in 1 Corinthians 9:21, where the term is also "in the law," as noted in Young's Concordance, it is impossible to determine. (Waggoner on Romans)

Tom, what is the difference between "under [obligation to obey] the law" and "in the law"? Following are three different versions of key verses.

Romans
2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned under law shall be judged by law. (RV)

2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. (NIV)

2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law. (NASB)

Romans
3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God. (RV)

3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. (NIV)

3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God. (NASB)

1 Corinthians
3:19 To them that are without law, as without law, not being without law to God, but under law to Christ, that I might gain them that are without law. (RV)

3:19 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. (NIV)

3:19 To those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. (NASB)

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Mountain Man] #103068
09/22/08 11:32 PM
09/22/08 11:32 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The following translations are from Young's Literal Translation

 Quote:
Tom, what is the difference between "under [obligation to obey] the law" and "in the law"?


In the Greek, "under the law" does not mean obligation to obey. "In the law" has this meaning.

 Quote:
12for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,


 Quote:
19And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God;


 Quote:
21to those without law, as without law -- (not being without law to God, but within law to Christ) -- that I might gain those without law;


I assume the last verse is 1 Cor. 9:21(?). These are from Young's Literal Translation, and present the Greek phrases.

When speaking of "under the law," are you concerned with the actual words in the Greek, or their meaning in English? These are two different things. In English, "under the law" means "subject to the law," so a phrase could be correctly translated that way in English to convey the English meaning, even though "in" is used in the Greek instead of "under."





Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #103113
09/24/08 06:22 PM
09/24/08 06:22 PM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
Here's Col. 2:14

 Quote:
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

A correct understanding of this text would have to take into account the phrase "that was against us, which was contrary to us".

Going back to the original question.....

I ran across this tidbit from Bacchiocchi:
Does Colossians 2:14 teaches that the Ceremonial Law was Nailed to the Cross?

To conclude our discussion on the use of EGW's writings in interpreting Scripture, I wish to submit a final example of theological nature. The previous examples were historical in nature, mainly because they were better suited to respond to the criticism that I am committing a serious mistake by rejecting "Ellen White's clear endorsement of Adventism's historic dates for the 1,260-year prophecy."

The final example relates also to my research on the Sabbath. Over the years I have been repeatedly accused by concerned Adventist of ignoring the clear teachings of Ellen White in some of the things I wrote about the Sabbath.

The very first challenges I faced when my dissertation From Sabbath to Sunday came off the press, had to do with my interpretation of Colossians 2:14. Concerned Adventists strongly felt that I am ignoring the clear interpretation given by Ellen White to this text, which reads: "Having cancelled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" (Col 2:14).

It might help to explain that historically Sundaykeepers have used Colossians 2:14 to prove that Paul teaches that the law in general and the Sabbath in particular were nailed to the Cross. Our Adventist response has been to argue that what was nailed to the Cross in Colossians 2:14, was not the moral, but the ceremonial law.

Ellen White uses several times Colossians 2:14 to support the teaching that the ceremonial law was nailed to the Cross. For example, in Patriarchs and Prophets she writes: ""This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross. Colossians 2:14."[36]

Ellen White's teachings that the function of the ceremonial law terminated at the Cross, is absolutely correct. This teaching is emphatically and repeatedly stated in Hebrews chapters 7 to 10, where the effect of Christ's coming is described as "setting aside" (7:18), making "obsolete" (8:13), "abolishing" (10:9) all the Levitical services associated with the sanctuary.

The issue is not the termination of the ceremonial law at the Cross, but whether such biblical teaching can be legitimately supported with Colossians 2:14. Ellen White cites this text several times to support the termination of the ritual law at the Cross.[37] Historically Adventists have followed the lead of Ellen White in maintaining that the "handwriting of ordinances" nailed to the Cross in Colossians 2:14 refer to the termination of the ceremonial law.

The attempts to read into Colossians 2:14 either the ceremonial law or the both the moral/ceremonial laws, are unfounded for at least two reasons. First, because in the whole of the epistle the word "law - nomos" is not used at all. Second, because these interpretations detract from the immediate argument (v. 13) designed to prove the fullness of God's forgiveness. The wiping out of the moral and/or ceremonial law would hardly provide Christians with the divine assurance of forgiveness. Guilt is not removed by destroying law codes. The latter would only leave mankind without moral principles.

What was nailed to the Cross was not the "law - nomos" but the cheirographon, a term which occurs only in Colossians 2:14. Its meaning has been clarified by its occurrence in apocalyptic literature where cheirographon is used to designate the "record-book of sin" or "the certificate of sin-indebtedness" but not the moral or ceremonial law.[38]

By this daring metaphor Paul affirms that through Christ, God has "cancelled," "set aside," "nailed to the cross" "the written record of our sins which because of the regulations was against us." The legal basis of the record of sins was "the binding statutes, regulations" (tois dogmasin) but what God destroyed on the Cross was not the legal ground (law) for our entanglement in sin, but the written record of our sins.

The function of the metaphor of the nailing to the Cross the record of our sins, is simply to reassure believers of the totality of God's forgiveness. There is no reason therefore for Christians to feel incomplete and to seek the help of inferior mediators, as taught by the Colossians' false teachers, since Christ has provided complete redemption and forgiveness. Interested readers are welcomed to read the extensive analysis of this text in both FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY and THE SABBATH UNDER CROSSFIRE.

Initially this interpretation was challenged by concerned Adventists who viewed it as a rejection of Ellen White's clear use of Colossians 2:14. Over the years, however, the resistance has subsided. Today I do not know of a single Adventist scholar who still hold to the traditional interpretation of this test.

[36] Patriarchs and Prophets p. 365.
[37] Acts of the Apostles, p. 194; Early Writings, p. 33; SDA Bible Commentary, vol 6, 1094-1095; Evangelism, p. 598, Selected Messages, vol 1, p. 239.
[38] For examples and a discussion, see my treatment in From Sabbath to Sunday, 1977, pp. 347-351.

Last edited by asygo; 09/24/08 06:25 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: asygo] #103120
09/24/08 07:49 PM
09/24/08 07:49 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Thanks, Arnold. That would have been good to post back on Page 1!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #103122
09/24/08 10:11 PM
09/24/08 10:11 PM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Well, I didn't know it back on Page 1. \:\)

I just found this. This newsletter was from 2002, but I stopped getting it in 2000. Better late than never, I guess.

Anyway, what he said about cheirographon makes sense to me.

Last edited by asygo; 09/24/08 10:12 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: asygo] #103130
09/25/08 01:05 AM
09/25/08 01:05 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
As I said at the beginning of the thread, I disagree with Bacchiocchi's position, which, as he says, is the position of most of our theologians today (obviously influenced by him). What is interesting is that all of them focus just on Col. 2:14 and none of them offers a reasonable explanation for Eph. 2:15.

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #103137
09/25/08 03:25 AM
09/25/08 03:25 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Actually, he said all of them.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #103138
09/25/08 05:47 AM
09/25/08 05:47 AM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
all of them focus just on Col. 2:14 and none of them offers a reasonable explanation for Eph. 2:15.

It's possible that they are making two different points.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #103174
09/25/08 10:21 PM
09/25/08 10:21 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
Actually, he said all of them.

Well, I think he is referring to American theologians or, at least, those who live in the US.

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #103176
09/25/08 10:34 PM
09/25/08 10:34 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
 Quote:

all of them focus just on Col. 2:14 and none of them offers a reasonable explanation for Eph. 2:15.

It's possible that they are making two different points.

Considering just Col. 2:14. If cheirographon is the record of our sins, what are the dogmasin?

ASV having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us

AV, KJV Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us

NKJV having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us

RSV having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands

Weymouth The bond, with its requirements, which was in force against us

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