Tom, please respond to post #102997 above on this thread. Thank you.

No.



Yes. If it weren't for Satan, none of this suffering would exist.



None of the suffering caused here would exist either.



He says the babies died in the Flood, so the purpose of the Flood could not have been to teach them anything. This is actually pretty obvious.



No it doesn't.



It shouldn't.



Thank you for clarifying your position. I would have wished you had said this straight off.

According to Ellen White, Satan is the author of sin and all its results. Do you agree with this? If so, how do you reconcile this statement with your ideas?



Permitting suffering is one thing. Causing it is another. Again, we are told that Satan is the author of sin and all its results. This looks to contradict what you're suggesting.

Actually, who is responsible for these things I think is a key battle in the Great Controversy. I believe God is innocent, and that much of Jesus Christ's mission was to establish this fact, which He did.

Suffering exists in spite of God, not because of God.

Tom, suffering and death would not exist 1) if Satan had not rebelled in heaven, 2) if Satan had not deceived Eve, 3) if Adam had not resolved to share Eve's fate, and 4) if God had not implemented the plan of salvation.

In what sense is Satan "the author of sin and all its results"? Does it mean he makes people sin and then arbitrarily decides how their sins will play out? Or, does it mean sin and suffering exist because Satan deceived Eve? Listen:

It is not in the power of all the host of Satan to force the tempted to transgress. There is no excuse for sin. {4T 623.2}

The tempter can never compel us to do evil. He cannot control minds unless they are yielded to his control. The will must consent, faith must let go its hold upon Christ, before Satan can exercise his power upon us. {DA 125.2}

No man without his own consent can be overcome by Satan. The tempter has no power to control the will or to force the soul to sin. He may distress, but he cannot contaminate. He can cause agony, but not defilement. {GC 510.3}


Is this the only reason suffering exists? Can all cases of suffering be explained this way? In other words, does this mean God never directly causes suffering Himself to punish sinners for their transgressions?

For example, the Flood - why did the Flood happen? Did God manipulate the forces of nature to cause the Flood? Or, did He withdraw His protection and allow the pent up forces of nature to naturally implode upon itself thus killing sinners in the process?

In the sense that Satan created sin, so is responsible for its existence and all the evil that has come as a result.



??? There's nothing in what you are responding to that "this" could correspond to. The statement, "Suffering exists in spite of God" is not a reason for the existence of suffering.

Regarding the Flood, all the Flood models I've seen have the waters beneath under great pressure, which pressure forced the waters into the atmosphere, where it caused the Flood to occur. This agrees with Scripture, which speaks of the waters of the great depths bursting forth, and with the SOP which speaks of the great amount of water underneath the earth's crust. So given that the waters were under great pressure, it looks like that is what caused the flood. God may have been preventing the waters from erupting until the flood occurred, or He could have simply known the earth's crust was about to give way, and inspired Noah to warn people of that.

But what does this have to do with anything?

Is committing sin the same thing as creating it? If Satan is responsible for all the sins committed by sinners, why, then, are sinners judged, condemned, punished, and destroyed for the sins they commit?


Your comment implies God does not cause suffering. Is this what you believe?


If God allowed the pent up forces of nature to flood the world, killing thousands of infants, by ceasing to hold them back - why does Ellen say God employs nature to cause destruction, instead of God stopped holding back the pent up forces of nature? Listen as she describes various scenes of destruction:

God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.--PC 136 (1894). {LDE 242.3}

The destruction that befell the northern kingdom was a direct judgment from Heaven. The Assyrians were merely the instruments that God used to carry out His purpose. {PK 291.3}

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. {3SG 82.3}

Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

Tom, suffering and death would not exist 1) if Satan had not rebelled in heaven, 2) if Satan had not deceived Eve, 3) if Adam had not resolved to share Eve's fate, and 4) if God had not implemented the plan of salvation.

Do you agree?

No, not quite. If Satan had rebelled, but not humans, there would have been suffering, but not for human beings, except in an empathetic way, assuming they didn't sin. If Adam had not resolved to share Eve's fate, he still would have suffered, because he loved her. It would certainly have limited tremendously the suffering of the rest of humanity, however. If God had not implemented the plan of salvation, there would have been suffering and death for Adam and Eve, but no other humans, since that would have been the end of the human race.

No. Satan did both, but others, after him, continue to sin, but do not create it, so creating it and committing it are different things.



Satan has a shared responsibility.



My statement "suffering exists in spite of God" implies that God is working to end suffering. That was the intent of my statement, and what I believe.

God does nothing bad, but if a person is sick, the process of healing can cause suffering, so I don't preclude that. He doesn't arbitrarily cause suffering, to punish someone, for example. He could withdraw His protection, and that could result in suffering.



Why does Scripture say that God killed Saul? Or that God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites? Or that God caused David to number Israel? Or that God was responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem?

God often presents Himself as doing that which He permits. There are many examples of this.

Regarding the flood, I assume you followed the logic that the waters which flew into the atmosphere must have been under pressure. Do you disagree that this is what happened? It seems to agree with:

1)The models Creation scientists have put together
2)What the Scripture says
3)What the SOP says

Do see a difference between the suffering you described above and the suffering I described? The reason I ask is because your response to my post makes me wonder if you think all suffering is the same. If you feel the types of suffering we are talking about above are worlds apart, then please help me understand how your response addresses what I posted. Thank you.

The possibility of sin and sinning existed before Lucifer sinned. So, he couldn't have created sin if the possibility existed before he sinned.


Not in the sins of the unsaved. That is, he will be punished for the sins committed by the unsaved.


"He could withdraw His protection, and that could result in suffering." Can people experience suffering while God is protecting them?

What is He protecting them from?

Are there other reasons why people experience suffering, reasons unrelated to what God does or does not do?


When a murderer uses a gun to kill someone, do we conclude the gun is what murdered the person? Or, do we conclude the guy who pulled the trigger is the one killed the person? In the same way, when God uses a "weapon" to punish and kill sinners, we must conclude God is the one killed them. God's weapons are many and varied. Listen:

God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.--PC 136 (1894). {LDE 242.3}

The destruction that befell the northern kingdom was a direct judgment from Heaven. The Assyrians were merely the instruments that God used to carry out His purpose. {PK 291.3}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}


Before the Flood, the forces of nature above and below the earth were the same as before A&E sinned. Eating the forbidden fruit did not in the least alter the forces of nature. True, Satan has permission to pervert nature, but he cannot exceed the limits and restrictions established by God. I do not believe the forces involved in the Flood were being unnaturally held in check by God - as if what happened during the Flood would have happened naturally the moment A&E sinned. Instead, I believe God employed the forces of nature to accomplish what happened during the Flood.