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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: asygo]
#103611
10/14/08 03:27 PM
10/14/08 03:27 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Arnold, how do you explain the apparent discrepancy?
A: They were deceived in different ways.
M: But Paul wrote plainly, too plainly to misunderstand - "Adam was not deceived." Doesn't it make more sense to assume Ellen's comments are in total agreement with Paul's unequivocal statement?
A: They are in total agreement. Paul said, "Adam was not deceived." EGW said, "Adam also was deceived." Yet, complete agreement. I agree. But please explain how "Adam was not deceived" and "Adam was also deceived" are in total agreement.
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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: asygo]
#103612
10/14/08 03:32 PM
10/14/08 03:32 PM
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1. Nowhere is the word "rebelled" used.
A: It's in another book. "he rebelled against the divine law" {PP 59.4} In what sense did he "rebel"? Certainly Adam did not "rebel" in the same sense Lucifer rebelled. Lucifer openly rebelled against God in heaven. Adam, on the other hand, braved the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit hoping God would have mercy on him and Eve and grant them a another chance at eternal life. In what sense is this rebellion?
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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#103713
10/16/08 06:41 AM
10/16/08 06:41 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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M: Arnold, how do you explain the apparent discrepancy?
A: They were deceived in different ways.
M: But Paul wrote plainly, too plainly to misunderstand - "Adam was not deceived." Doesn't it make more sense to assume Ellen's comments are in total agreement with Paul's unequivocal statement?
A: They are in total agreement. Paul said, "Adam was not deceived." EGW said, "Adam also was deceived." Yet, complete agreement. I agree. But please explain how "Adam was not deceived" and "Adam was also deceived" are in total agreement. I can't pretend to know the certain and complete explanation, but I can think of some possibilities. Here's one: Adam was not deceived as to the nature of the serpent; He knew that was Satan. However, he was deceived into thinking that Satan's promise - sin and live - might be true.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#103714
10/16/08 06:51 AM
10/16/08 06:51 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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1. Nowhere is the word "rebelled" used.
A: It's in another book. "he rebelled against the divine law" {PP 59.4} In what sense did he "rebel"? Certainly Adam did not "rebel" in the same sense Lucifer rebelled. Lucifer openly rebelled against God in heaven. Adam, on the other hand, braved the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit hoping God would have mercy on him and Eve and grant them a another chance at eternal life. In what sense is this rebellion? While Adam did not rebel to the same degree as Lucifer did, his rebellion was just as real. Rebellion is rebellion; there is no qualitative difference. Adam braving the consequences of his choice was not the rebellion. Neither was his rebellion in the hope that God would let it slide. The rebellion was in the fact that God told him, "You shall not eat it," then he did. His willful disobedience of a known command constituted his rebellion. So what does that reveal about us when we do something we know is wrong?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: asygo]
#103723
10/16/08 03:22 PM
10/16/08 03:22 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Adam was deceived in terms of God's character. Had Adam not been deceived, he would have asked God what he should do. Clearly Adam had a dilemma, and God would have been more than willing to help him had he asked for help.
However, this isn't what Paul was talking about. In terms of what Paul was talking about, Adam was not deceived (which was that the serpent was the foe Adam had been warned about, and was tempting him to eat of the fruit that God had said not to eat of, etc.)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: asygo]
#103759
10/17/08 06:03 PM
10/17/08 06:03 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Arnold, how do you explain the apparent discrepancy?
A: They were deceived in different ways.
M: But Paul wrote plainly, too plainly to misunderstand - "Adam was not deceived." Doesn't it make more sense to assume Ellen's comments are in total agreement with Paul's unequivocal statement?
A: They are in total agreement. Paul said, "Adam was not deceived." EGW said, "Adam also was deceived." Yet, complete agreement.
M: I agree. But please explain how "Adam was not deceived" and "Adam was also deceived" are in total agreement.
A: I can't pretend to know the certain and complete explanation, but I can think of some possibilities. Here's one: Adam was not deceived as to the nature of the serpent; He knew that was Satan. However, he was deceived into thinking that Satan's promise - sin and live - might be true. In a sense it was true, right? Adam was correct in his thinking that God might devise a plan to forgive and save them from their sin.
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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: asygo]
#103760
10/17/08 06:08 PM
10/17/08 06:08 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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1. Nowhere is the word "rebelled" used.
A: It's in another book. "he rebelled against the divine law" {PP 59.4}
M: In what sense did he "rebel"? Certainly Adam did not "rebel" in the same sense Lucifer rebelled. Lucifer openly rebelled against God in heaven. Adam, on the other hand, braved the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit hoping God would have mercy on him and Eve and grant them a another chance at eternal life. In what sense is this rebellion?
A: While Adam did not rebel to the same degree as Lucifer did, his rebellion was just as real. Rebellion is rebellion; there is no qualitative difference.
Adam braving the consequences of his choice was not the rebellion. Neither was his rebellion in the hope that God would let it slide. The rebellion was in the fact that God told him, "You shall not eat it," then he did. His willful disobedience of a known command constituted his rebellion.
So what does that reveal about us when we do something we know is wrong? Is choosing to eat forbidden fruit hoping God would forive and save them rebellion? It sounds more like an unwise choice rather than rebellion. Adam sinned in eating the forbidden fruit, but his reasons for soing it were hardly rebellious. Are sinning and rebelling always synonymous? Or, are there times when they're not?
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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: Tom]
#103762
10/17/08 06:16 PM
10/17/08 06:16 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Adam was deceived in terms of God's character. Had Adam not been deceived, he would have asked God what he should do. Clearly Adam had a dilemma, and God would have been more than willing to help him had he asked for help.
However, this isn't what Paul was talking about. In terms of what Paul was talking about, Adam was not deceived (which was that the serpent was the foe Adam had been warned about, and was tempting him to eat of the fruit that God had said not to eat of, etc.) Adam knew Eve was doomed. He didn't have to talk to God about it. He decided to share her fate hoping God would cut both of them slack. And, as it turns out, his hopes were realized. Which indicates he was not deceived about God's character. He knew God's character well enough to think to hope He would implement a plan to ransome and redeem them. I agree with you that Adam was not deceived as to who and what the serpent was. He knew it was Satan tempting him through Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Neither was Adam deceived as to the death penalty for disobeying God. Adam knew exactly what he was risking when he braved eating the forbidden fruit. Like Paul said - Adam was not deceived. He was even right about what God would do in response to their disobedience.
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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#103768
10/17/08 08:46 PM
10/17/08 08:46 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Adam knew Eve was doomed. He didn't have to talk to God about it. He decided to share her fate hoping God would cut both of them slack. There's no evidence for any of this! Read through the SOP account. And, as it turns out, his hopes were realized. Which indicates he was not deceived about God's character. He knew God's character well enough to think to hope He would implement a plan to ransome and redeem them.
Nor for this either! You're saying that Adam was hoping God would "cut both of them slack" and this "his hopes were realized." So you believe God cut them slack?! If Adam had trusted God, he would have gone to God with his dilemma. Rather than trust God, Adam chose to go his own way, which is the essence of sin (and rebellion). I agree with you that Adam was not deceived as to who and what the serpent was. He knew it was Satan tempting him through Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Neither was Adam deceived as to the death penalty for disobeying God. Adam knew exactly what he was risking when he braved eating the forbidden fruit. Like Paul said - Adam was not deceived. He was even right about what God would do in response to their disobedience. Well, Ellen White said Adam *was* deceived. You asked in regards to what, so I told you. The apparent conflict by what Paul wrote and what EGW wrote is resolved when we take into account the context of their statements. Adam was deceived in regards to God's character, but not in regards to the other things I pointed out.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does God Punish Suicide?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#103773
10/17/08 11:02 PM
10/17/08 11:02 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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A: I can't pretend to know the certain and complete explanation, but I can think of some possibilities. Here's one: Adam was not deceived as to the nature of the serpent; He knew that was Satan. However, he was deceived into thinking that Satan's promise - sin and live - might be true. In a sense it was true, right? Adam was correct in his thinking that God might devise a plan to forgive and save them from their sin. No, it wasn't true. Satan's plan was "sin and live" with a complete avoidance of death. God's plan is very different - sin, die, rebirth, live. Adam thought it may be possible to be saved from death, not saved from sin. We find evidence for this in his reaction when confronted with his sin - he tried to shift the blame. If someone else is to blame, that means he had no problem, hence, no need for salvation. If he really thought that God might save him from sin, he would have fallen at God's feet in shame and sorrow, rather than blaming Eve. But he found out that he was wrong; the wages of sin is always death, no exceptions.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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