Hi Tom,

The OC is both a literal dispensation and a metaphor of the condition of someone who believes they can be saved by their own works (possibly a “stony heart” expresses this idea as well). I would love to talk simply about the OC in terms of a metaphor, but continually the discussion turns to questions like:

What does the word “abolished” mean?
What was abolished and what wasn’t?
I think it was just the ceremonial law excluding tithing, health, and 10Cs.
Should we be keeping the feasts of Leviticus 23.

These questions are dealing with the dispensation of the OC and not the metaphor.

I think you are missing at least one point in your above statement. Paul says, “Abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances”. The enmity is “the Law of commandments contained in ordinances”, not the carnal mind. And Paul tells us what was wrong with the law:



The covenant excluded the Gentiles from circumcision, the commonwealth of Israel, the promises, and left them with no hope and without God.

This was not a problem that could just be solved by a new heart. The law had to be repealed and the Gentiles had to be included in the family of God. That is what the NC does.



Scott

Actually that is exactly Paul’s conclusion that destroying the OC Law takes away any possibility of self righteousness and allows God to extend grace to the Gentiles. Which act also becomes a metaphor of those who live in the NC and live by grace alone and trust only in God’s goodness for their salvation.



Yes, that is right! Eph. 2 is dealing with the Gentiles who were afar off and the Jews who are close being brought together by destroying the enmity, taking away the law (the whole OC) that separated them from each other and excluded the Gentiles from the Hope of Israel.

Col. 2 is telling us that once we came to Christ he nailed to the cross the law (10Cs) that stood as a witness against us. The very law that points out our sin and declares us unrighteous! He did this by forgiving our transgressions (sins that the 10Cs say we are guilty of) which canceled out our death certificate.

Just like the OC excluded the Gentiles from God’s family so God abolished it to make peace between the Jews and the Gentiles so God nailed to the cross the only witness against all men who are saved that proves their guilt and shame. This is all a metaphor of God’s forgiveness.

He says that nothing shall separate us from Himself. Our guilt from sin can’t separate us because God nailed the witness of our guilt (10Cs) on the cross. Our being excluded can’t separate us from Him because He took away any and all obstacles (the OC) that we could use to believe we were excluded from His grace. This doesn’t mean there is no law and that it is now ok to sin! It is simply a metaphor of God’s outrageous forgiveness. He overlooks our sin and our separation and has arms wide open to receive us into His family. He has torn down all the partitions in Christ.



Galatians 3 (10Cs are a schoolmaster that we are no longer under) and Hebrews 8 (OC obsolete and ready to pass away) are saying the exact same thing.

scott

I think sometimes that I cause more heat than light so I think I'm going to bow out of the discussions for awhile. I appreciate all of you for putting up with me!

God Bless you all and I'll catch you later! (Once I catch a better attitude)

scott

It’s called the “mystery of godliness” for the very reason parts of it do not make sense to us right now. We will be studying it throughout eternity without actually ever completely understanding it. Just because we cannot comprehend certain parts of the plan of salvation it does not mean God is an unethical lawyer. Yes, it does not make sense from our fallen human point of view for Jesus to pay our sin debt of death. No human court of law would allow a criminal to go free if his older brother volunteered to die in his place. But we’re talking about God – not any ordinary brother.


The law still condemns past sins. It doesn’t ignore them. Law and justice require God to punish and destroy sinners for the sins they have committed. God has bound Himself by His word, by His law to execute sinners. “By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors.” {6BC 1095.4}

The law is very important to God. The plan of salvation has as much to do with upholding the just and loving demands of law as it does with motivating sinners to love and obey God. "God has a church on earth who are lifting up the downtrodden law, and presenting to the world the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. {TM 50.1} "Christ volunteered to maintain and vindicate the holiness of the divine law. {Con 20.2} "The time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. {GC 656.1}

"To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. . . By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

"The fact that the only-begotten Son of God gave His life because of man's transgression, to satisfy justice and to vindicate the honor of God's law, should be constantly kept before the minds of children and youth. The object of this great sacrifice should also be kept before them; for it was to uplift fallen man degraded by sin that this great sacrifice was made. Christ suffered in order that through faith in Him our sins might be pardoned. He became man's substitute and surety, Himself taking the punishment, though all undeserving, that we who deserved it might be free, and return to our allegiance to God through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. {FE 369.1}

Tom, not sinning from now on does not atone for past sins. Atonement is concerned with past sins. Just because sinners stop sinning it does not mean that their past sins no longer require atonement. The plan of salvation deals with the whole sin problem. It deals with past sins, it deals with honoring the law, it deals with empowering sinners to cease sinning, and it deals with empowering saints to imitate the sinless example of Jesus.

Death must come in consequence of man’s sin. “In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin.” (Con 22) The death of Jesus accomplishes more than motivating sinners to love God and cease sinning. Sinners were motivated to love and obey God long before Jesus died on the cross. They did it for 4,000 years before Jesus died on the cross. Enoch, Moses, and Elijah went to heaven long before Jesus died on the cross.

Obviously, therefore, God was able to demonstrate He is worthy of worship long before Jesus died on the cross. The idea that the only problem that needs to be dealt with is to motivate sinners to love and obey God is false. It ignores the claims and demands of law and justice. It assumes past sins can be simply ignored, that the penalty for sinning can be simply ignored. But the opposite is true. Ellen wrote:

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

PS - The OC was necessary because the Jews were prone to sinning. If they had been less prone to sinning the OC would not have been necessary. In fact, if mankind had not been so prone to sinning it would not have been necessary to express the law in 10 commandments. Nor would it have been necessary to command 613 additional civil, sanitary, dietary, and ceremonial laws. Although under the NC we are no longer required to observe all of them, the record remains for us to read and heed the principles they upheld.

"If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses. {PP 364.2}

Worded to Meet Fallen Intelligences.--The law of Jehovah dating back to creation, was comprised in the two great principles, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." These two great principles embrace the first four commandments, showing the duty of man to God, and the last six, showing the duty of man to his fellowman. The principles were more explicitly stated to man after the fall, and worded to meet the case of fallen intelligences. This was necessary in consequence of the minds of men being blinded by transgression (ST April 15, 1875). {1BC 1104.4}

The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned. After the transgression of Adam the principles of the law were not changed, but were definitely arranged and expressed to meet man in his fallen condition. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the son of God (Ibid., March 14, 1878). {1BC 1104.5}

Precepts Given to Guard Decalogue.--In consequence of continual transgression, the moral law was repeated in awful grandeur from Sinai. Christ gave to Moses religious precepts which were to govern everyday life. These statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten commandments. They were not shadowy types to pass away with the death of Christ. They were to be binding upon men in every age as long as time should last. These commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that law (Ibid., April 15, 1875). {1BC 1104.6}

Of course not. Why are you making this point?



Atonement is concerned with sinners, not sins (except incidentally). The issue is how to reconcile the sinner.



The atonement is "at-one-ment" with God, which is reconciliation. How can the sinner be reconciled with God? (i.e. how can the atonement take place?) That's the question.

Certainly no amount of not sinning can make the sinner right with God. What is needed is some way to bring the sinner at one with God, despite that damage to his relationship which sin has brought.



I agree that it does all these things. How? By revealing the truth about God.



By revealing God, Christ exalted God's character, thus honoring His law. By beholding we become changed into the same image, so the revelation of God accomplishes the other things you mentioned as well.

It's not that it was necessary, but it arose, because of sinning, specifically the sin of unbelief. Had the Jews believed the Gospel, they would not have sought to establish their own righteousness, but would have instead accepted the righteousness of Christ, and would never have been under the OC.



I agree somewhat with this, the main difference being that the problem was not being "prone to sinning" but unbelief.



This should say, "although since we live after the death of Christ" rather than "although under the NC." David was under the NC as much as any other saint, but he observed the ceremonial law (I assume that's what you're referring to). In fact, the ceremonial law was itself a celebration of being under the NC, when acted upon in faith.

The NC is not a matter of dispensation (nor the OC). It's not a matter of time, but of condition.

The NC is the only covenant under which any one has ever been saved.

And here we find the two paradigms clash - penal vs relational.

Anyway, I was thinking about atonement in terms of reconciliation. Then I thought of the reconciliation I do when doing my accounting. Any similarities? I think so.

That's why I don't see the "need" to put away the OC in order to live according to the NC. Many people were saved under the NC while the OC was in effect.