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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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Re: Lesson #1 - God's Nature: The Basis of ATONEMENT
[Re: asygo]
#103359
10/01/08 03:18 PM
10/01/08 03:18 PM
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Here's a statement from the lesson: God's natural hatred for sin made necessary the role of a Mediator. Here's a statement from Waggoner regarding Christ as Mediator: It should be understood that Christ's work as Mediator is not limited either as to time or extent. To be Mediator means more than to be intercessor. Christ was Mediator before sin came into the world, and will be Mediator when no sin is in the universe, and no need for expiation. "In Him all things consist." He is the very impress of the Father's being. He is the life. Only in and through Him does the life of God flow to all creation. He is, then, the means, medium, mediator, the way, by which the light of life pervades the universe. He did not first become Mediator at the fall of man, but was such from eternity. No one, not simply no man, but no created being, comes to the Father but by Christ. No angel can stand in the Divine presence except in Christ. No new power was developed, no new machinery, so to speak, was required to be set in motion by the entering of sin into the world. (The Glad Tidings; emphasis mine) I think Waggoner is correct (The last sentence is profound, with wide-spread applications, which perhaps we can discuss sometime). If one's hatred for sin makes a Mediator necessary, then Christ's hatred for sin would require the role of Mediator between Him and us. And so would angels, as they hate sin too. And so would saints, and they become more like Christ. Then we wind up with a system which looks like Catholicism, where instead of praying to God, we pray to Christ, but that's to much, so we pray to angels, but that's too much, so we pray to the Virgin Mary, but that's to much, so we pray to a lesser saint and work our way up the ladder.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #1 - God's Nature: The Basis of ATONEMENT
[Re: Tom]
#103371
10/02/08 07:54 PM
10/02/08 07:54 PM
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Here's a statement from Waggoner regarding Christ as Mediator: No new power was developed, no new machinery, so to speak, was required to be set in motion by the entering of sin into the world. (The Glad Tidings; emphasis mine) But there are SOP quotes that suggest that sin caused a change. Here's one: The holy and infinite God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable, could no longer talk with man. No communication could now exist directly between man and his Maker. {Con 19.4}
God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. Satan flattered himself that he had forever broken the link between heaven and earth. But in this he was greatly mistaken and disappointed. The Father had given the world into the hands of His Son for Him to redeem from the curse and the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall. Through Christ alone can man now find access to God. And through Christ alone will the Lord hold communication with man. {Con 20.1} If one's hatred for sin makes a Mediator necessary, then Christ's hatred for sin would require the role of Mediator between Him and us. That makes sense. But there does seem to be a difference between Father and Son, such that Jesus is the Mediator, not the Father.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #1 - God's Nature: The Basis of ATONEMENT
[Re: Rick H]
#103372
10/02/08 07:56 PM
10/02/08 07:56 PM
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I have the Sabbath School lesson this Saturday so any thing that everyone can bring to the discussion is at least by me, greatly appreciated... The key thought is something worthy of some thought and discussion: God’s work of salvation is a self-willed outflow of His very nature; it does not require sinners to persuade Him to love them.Many still believe that God's love is something we must earn. But the truth is that God's love is something we must learn.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #1 - God's Nature: The Basis of ATONEMENT
[Re: asygo]
#103373
10/03/08 03:54 AM
10/03/08 03:54 AM
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T:If one's hatred for sin makes a Mediator necessary, then Christ's hatred for sin would require the role of Mediator between Him and us.
A:That makes sense. But there does seem to be a difference between Father and Son, such that Jesus is the Mediator, not the Father. That's rather circular, isn't it? The SOP tells us if Christ had remained in heaven, and the Father become incarnate instead, the history of His life would have been no different. In this case, one could say, "But there does seem to be a difference between Son and Father, such that the Father is the Mediator, not the Son." Regarding your saying "but the SOP quotes suggest there was such a change," these look to be orthogonal concepts. That is, I doubt Waggoner would find any fault in what EGW wrote, nor she with what he wrote. At any rate, my main point was that this statement: God's natural hatred for sin made necessary the role of a Mediator. is false.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #1 - God's Nature: The Basis of ATONEMENT
[Re: Tom]
#103374
10/03/08 01:58 PM
10/03/08 01:58 PM
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At any rate, my main point was that this statement: God's natural hatred for sin made necessary the role of a Mediator. is false. ???? Even setting aside the additional element which exists in our perspective of the atonement and considering just your perspective, this statement is true. God's hatred for sin is His glory which consumes sin. Man is separated from God because if He approaches God he will be consumed by His glory. Therefore, in order to communicate with man His glory had to be veiled - and that's why a Mediator became necessary. Isn't this what you believe, too?
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Re: Lesson #1 - God's Nature: The Basis of ATONEMENT
[Re: Tom]
#103375
10/03/08 02:33 PM
10/03/08 02:33 PM
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T:If one's hatred for sin makes a Mediator necessary, then Christ's hatred for sin would require the role of Mediator between Him and us.
A:That makes sense. But there does seem to be a difference between Father and Son, such that Jesus is the Mediator, not the Father. That's rather circular, isn't it? The SOP tells us if Christ had remained in heaven, and the Father become incarnate instead, the history of His life would have been no different. In this case, one could say, "But there does seem to be a difference between Son and Father, such that the Father is the Mediator, not the Son." Regarding your saying "but the SOP quotes suggest there was such a change," these look to be orthogonal concepts. That is, I doubt Waggoner would find any fault in what EGW wrote, nor she with what he wrote. At any rate, my main point was that this statement: God's natural hatred for sin made necessary the role of a Mediator. is false. God could not come down in all His glory amoung us sinners, we would all be destroyed, so Christ had to come down. Sin is the anti-matter to Gods matter, they cannot coexist, Christ became flesh so He could reach man with shielded divinity.
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Re: Lesson #1 - God's Nature: The Basis of ATONEMENT
[Re: Rick H]
#103377
10/03/08 08:55 PM
10/03/08 08:55 PM
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Tom's quote in post #103359 is only a part of the following from Wednesday's section: God's holiness does not tolerate sin but actively reacts against it (Isa. 5:24, Hosea 9:15, Rom. 1:18). “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong” (Hab. 1:13, NIV). God's natural hatred for sin made necessary the role of a Mediator. God designed a way by which sinners could be sanctified and enjoy fellowship with Him again. This was possible through Christ, in whom atonement and holiness were mysteriously united. The Holy One was born as a baby on this planet of sin and impurity (Luke 1:35) to sanctify us through the power of His atoning death: “We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ” (Heb. 10:10, NIV).
The bolded part is what Tom quoted.
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