No, I wasn't addressing that. What you wrote wasn't precise, which is what I was addressing. It could be all the points I made were moot, and that you're being more precise would answer each objection I made, but it's also possible there was something more substantive involved, which is why I brought up the points. You would have to decide if you thought there was something meaningfully different.

This doesn't make sense. The possibility of a light bulb existed before Edison, but that doesn't mean he didn't create it. The possibility of the theory of relativity existed before Einstein, but that doesn't mean he didn't create it. The possibility of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony existed before Beethoven, but that doesn't mean he didn't create that.

The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that Satan is the "author of sin." What does "author" mean? It means it's his creation. What do you think "author" means, if not this?



The wicked are also punished for these sins. That's why it's a shared responsibility.



Sure. Job shows this.



According to the SOP, there are thousands of things.



This seems very vague. People suffer from indigestion. That seems unrelated to something God does. Does this address your question?

Regarding your question of the gun, it is the intent of the purpose that decides. It's good that you're bringing this up, as it is 180% opposed to your previous argument regarding God's not bearing responsibility because bullets don't have rights.

So what is God's intention? God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth. He would have all men repent. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Yet, in spite of this, sometimes God's wishes are not respected, and His will is opposed. People tragically resist the Holy Spirit, and God will eventually give them up.



No way! Sin introduced tremendous changes!



This is paraphrasing Romans 8:22





My word, what an assertion! It changed all sorts of things. Just to mention one, before sin do you think lions were carnivorous?



Your sidestepping the argument here. I demonstrated from three different sources that the waters which caused the flood came from below the earth's crust. They have been under tremendous pressure to have caused the water to go from beneath the earth to up in the atmosphere. Do you disagree with this?

At any rate, our differences are caused not by the evidence, but by our views of God's character. You see God as acting in certain ways, so interpret things to correspond to your view of God. I plead guilty to doing the same thing. What causes our differences is how we perceive God to be.

In other words, suffering and death, as we know it, exist because 1) Adam resolved to share Eve's fate, and 2) God implemented the plan of salvation. So, not all suffering and death occur because of sin and Satan. Sometimes it happens because of the plan of salvation. That is, sometimes God uses His "workmen" (i.e. trials and tribulation) to polish people. Even Jesus endured this polishing process. Such polishing causes suffering. Sometimes it ends in death. Listen:

The trials of life are God’s workmen, to remove the impurities and roughness from our character. Their hewing, squaring, and chiseling, their burnishing and polishing, is a painful process; it is hard to be pressed down to the grinding wheel. But the stone is brought forth prepared to fill its place in the heavenly temple. Upon no useless material does the Master bestow such careful, thorough work. Only His precious stones are polished after the similitude of a palace. (MB 10)

It is through much tribulation that we are to enter the kingdom of God. Our Saviour was tried in every possible way, and yet He triumphed in God continually. It is our privilege to be strong in the strength of God under all circumstances and to glory in the cross of Christ. (AG 90)

They are prepared to be used in every emergency, to fill important positions of trust, and to accomplish the grand purposes for which their powers were given them. God takes men upon trial; He proves them on the right hand and on the left, and thus they are educated, trained, disciplined. Jesus, our Redeemer, man’s representative and head, endured this testing process. (4T 86)

Yes, God uses suffering, and other evils, to be a blessing in the working out of trials, to develop empathy for others, and so forth. But the fact that God uses evils for good, does not make Him responsible for the evils He uses.



A couple of points here. First of all, Satan is the author of sin and all its results. Is suffering and death the result of sin? Yes, it is. So who is responsible? Satan, the author of sin and all its results.

Now if there were any question as to whether suffering is the result of sin, this is also addressed: "It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law ..."

All suffering results from sin. Who is the author of sin? Satan. So, once again, we see that Satan is responsible for all suffering, since he is responsible for sin, and all suffering is the result of sin.

Now Satan isn't the only one who sins, so while he is indirectly responsible for all suffering, those who sin are responsible for suffering as well. However, since God does not sin, and "all suffering" is the result of sin, God is responsible for none of it.

Ellen explains what she means: “. . . Satan, the prince of evil, the author of sin, the first transgressor of God's holy law.” {GC x.1}


Only Satan suffers and dies for the sins of the saved. He does not suffer and die for the sins of the unsaved. They will suffer and die for their own sins. True, Satan will suffer and die for tempting the unsaved to sin, but that is not the same thing as suffering and dying for the sins they committed. He will suffer and die with 1) the sins he tempted the saved to commit, and 2) the sins they committed.


People suffer while God is protecting them? What good then is His protection? And, how does one differentiate between suffering with God’s protection and suffering without His protection?


Thousands of “arbitrary” (using your definition) things? Or, thousands of cause and effect things?


So, indigestion is an example of suffering unrelated to what God does or does not do. Are there times when God intervenes and prevents indigestion? Or, does He always, under all circumstances, “allow” it to happen? In other words, people experience indigestion because God chooses not to intervene. He chose to allow them to experience the natural cause and effect consequences. Either way, God must choose, and people experience the results of His choice. Thus, nothing is entirely the result of natural consequences. Everything depends on what God does or does not do.


Bullets do not have rights. God can intervene and prevent bullets from killing people. People have rights; therefore, God cannot force them to not want to kill someone. He can, however, intervene and prevent them from killing people. For example, God can stop keeping them alive before they pull the trigger. The point is – God leaves nothing to choice or chance. He is intimately involved in everything that happens and does not happen.


Listen:

In the days of Noah a double curse was resting upon the earth in consequence of Adam's transgression and of the murder committed by Cain. Yet this had not greatly changed the face of nature. There were evident tokens of decay, but the earth was still rich and beautiful in the gifts of God's providence. {PP 90.1}

The point is - Eating the forbidden fruit did not radically change nature. The Flood is what radically changed nature. The question is - Who or what caused the Flood?


Lions were not carnivorous before sin. But neither was man. Long, sharp canine teeth evolved over a period of time. But the forces of nature I’m referring to did not change when man sinned. That is, fire and water did not suddenly become pressurized and dangerous. Eating the forbidden fruit did not directly cause any changes to nature itself. There is absolutely no direct connection between this sin and the forces of nature employed in the Flood. True, it is because of sin that God employed the forces of nature to destroy the world and her inhabitants with water.

True, God gives Satan permission to pervert nature, but only within the limits and restrictions He establishes. Satan cannot do anything to man or nature without God's permission. Nor does God allow the Devil to do something which He must then work to counteract to prevent destruction from occurring. For example, God did not allow Satan to pressurize water only to turn around and have to work to prevent it from gushing out and killing people.


I do not believe the water was under pressure before A&E ate the forbidden fruit. Nor do I believe it became pressurized because they ate the forbidden fruit. I have no way of knowing if the water was pressurized. Neither do you. We know why the Flood happened, but not how. It happened because God made it happen. How the water gushed from above and below the earth has not been explained.


We both agree God has employed nature, angels, and humans to carry out His purposes. For example:

God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

The destruction that befell the northern kingdom was a direct judgment from Heaven. The Assyrians were merely the instruments that God used to carry out His purpose. {PK 291.3}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. . . Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Not true. There are times when God Himself inflicts punishment and death. Listen:

God delights in mercy, and He manifests His compassion before He inflicts His judgments. He teaches Israel to spare the people of Edom, before requiring them to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan. {PP 423.2}

God will bring you over the ground again and again until with humble heart and subdued mind you bear the test that He inflicts and are wholly sanctified to His service and work. {4T 214.1}

Not all suffering is the result of sin. Sometimes God causes or permits suffering to serve a higher purpose. The Devil does not cooperate with God in this endeavor. Nor does God depend on the Devil to cause suffering so that He can lead people to higher places.

1.All suffering results from sin.
2.God does not sin.
3.Therefore God does not cause suffering.

Which of 1, 2, or 3 are you saying is not true?

Ok, it looks like you are saying 1 (that all suffering results from sin) is not true. This comes from the following:



I underlined this for you. It's from the DA 471 quote. Now you will agree that sin is the transgression of God's law, right? Then it follows that all suffering results from sin.

Case in point - Job. His losses and suffering were not the result of any sinning he was guilty of doing.

Ellen explains what she means: “. . . Satan, the prince of evil, the author of sin, the first transgressor of God's holy law.” {GC x.1}


Only Satan suffers and dies for the sins of the saved. He does not suffer and die for the sins of the unsaved. They will suffer and die for their own sins. True, Satan will suffer and die for tempting the unsaved to sin, but that is not the same thing as suffering and dying for the sins they committed. He will suffer and die with 1) the sins he tempted the saved to commit, and 2) the sins they committed.


People suffer while God is protecting them? What good then is His protection? And, how does one differentiate between suffering with God’s protection and suffering without His protection?


Thousands of “arbitrary” (using your definition) things? Or, thousands of cause and effect things?


So, indigestion is an example of suffering unrelated to what God does or does not do. Are there times when God intervenes and prevents indigestion? Or, does He always, under all circumstances, “allow” it to happen? In other words, people experience indigestion because God chooses not to intervene. He chose to allow them to experience the natural cause and effect consequences. Either way, God must choose, and people experience the results of His choice. Thus, nothing is entirely the result of natural consequences. Everything depends on what God does or does not do.


Bullets do not have rights. God can intervene and prevent bullets from killing people. People have rights; therefore, God cannot force them to not want to kill someone. He can, however, intervene and prevent them from killing people. For example, God can stop keeping them alive before they pull the trigger. The point is – God leaves nothing to choice or chance. He is intimately involved in everything that happens and does not happen.


Listen:

In the days of Noah a double curse was resting upon the earth in consequence of Adam's transgression and of the murder committed by Cain. Yet this had not greatly changed the face of nature. There were evident tokens of decay, but the earth was still rich and beautiful in the gifts of God's providence. {PP 90.1}

The point is - Eating the forbidden fruit did not radically change nature. The Flood is what radically changed nature. The question is - Who or what caused the Flood?


Lions were not carnivorous before sin. But neither was man. Long, sharp canine teeth evolved over a period of time. But the forces of nature I’m referring to did not change when man sinned. That is, fire and water did not suddenly become pressurized and dangerous. Eating the forbidden fruit did not directly cause any changes to nature itself. There is absolutely no direct connection between this sin and the forces of nature employed in the Flood. True, it is because of sin that God employed the forces of nature to destroy the world and her inhabitants with water.

True, God gives Satan permission to pervert nature, but only within the limits and restrictions He establishes. Satan cannot do anything to man or nature without God's permission. Nor does God allow the Devil to do something which He must then work to counteract to prevent destruction from occurring. For example, God did not allow Satan to pressurize water only to turn around and have to work to prevent it from gushing out and killing people.


I do not believe the water was under pressure before A&E ate the forbidden fruit. Nor do I believe it became pressurized because they ate the forbidden fruit. I have no way of knowing if the water was pressurized. Neither do you. We know why the Flood happened, but not how. It happened because God made it happen. How the water gushed from above and below the earth has not been explained.


We both agree God has employed nature, angels, and humans to carry out His purposes. For example:

God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

The destruction that befell the northern kingdom was a direct judgment from Heaven. The Assyrians were merely the instruments that God used to carry out His purpose. {PK 291.3}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. . . Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}