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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Tom] #103720
10/16/08 03:04 PM
10/16/08 03:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Tom, it is difficult to believe Eve or Adam willfully rebelled against God and intelligently joined Satan's side of the GC. Nothing in the biblical account suggests such a scenario. Besides, if they were in the same boat as Satan, if they sinned and rebelled for the same reasons, why did God implement the plan of salvation?

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Mountain Man] #103729
10/16/08 04:03 PM
10/16/08 04:03 PM
Tom  Offline
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 Quote:
Tom, it is difficult to believe Eve or Adam willfully rebelled against God


Satan didn't hold a gun to their head. Their rebellion was willful. That's not difficult to believe.

 Quote:
Tom, it is difficult to believe Eve or Adam willfully rebelled against God and intelligently joined Satan's side of the GC. Nothing in the biblical account suggests such a scenario. Besides, if they were in the same boat as Satan, if they sinned and rebelled for the same reasons, why did God implement the plan of salvation?


Since I cut off your first sentence, I'm including everything you said here to give a context. Instead of saying, "Nothing in the biblical account suggests such a scenario." I think "I see nothing in the biblical account which suggests such a scenario." would be more circumspect.

Here's a nice explanation, by Ty Gibson, which brings out the point I was making from the Biblical account (Ty in bold):

Human perception of the divine character was first distorted in the hearts and minds of our original parents, Adam and Eve. The account given in Scripture is very enlightening.

Basically what happened was this: God's archenemy, Satan, told Adam and Eve a two-pronged lie about God's character. (1) God cannot be trusted (2) because He is totally self-serving and does not have your best interest at heart. Satan painted a new picture of God, and we became rebels by believing that dark portrait. Notice how the father of lies framed his case against the Creator:

 Quote:
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:1-5)


The first things we want to notice is the word "subtil" in verse one. Satan approached with an intent to deceive, to lead humanity to believe an untruth about God.

Don't overlook the underlying point of his falsehood. Read between the lines. When Satan uttered the words, "Yea, hath God said?..." he placed a question mark on God's word, bringing His very integrity under suspicion. He communicated into the human heart an idea of mistrust toward the Lord. Then he proceeded to blatantly contradict what God had said: "Ye shall not surely die." The insinuation is evident: "I know God said you'll die if you eat this fruit, but I'm telling you no such thing will happen. God is a liar. He cannot be trusted."

If that wasn't bad enough, the next things Satan said made the lie even more dark and tempting. "The whole reason why God has lied to you is because he knows that if you eat this desirable fruit you'll be exalted to equality with Him. He is totally selfish and doesn't want you to break up His monopoly on this higher state of freedom and pleasure. He doesn't love you. He only cares about Himself. Break free from His tyrannical rule."

On the inner canvas of human imagination Satan painted God in his own ugly image, in the dark hues of dishonesty and selfishness. Because the temptation was woven out of a subtle misrepresentation of God's character, the sin problem is far deeper than mere behavioral misconduct. When Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, they had, in effect, believed what Satan said about God. As a result, their perception of God's character was drastically altered. Whereas once they believed Him to be a God of infinite love who desired their eternal happiness, now they believed He was untrustworthy and self-serving.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Mountain Man] #103739
10/17/08 01:11 AM
10/17/08 01:11 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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 Quote:
Besides, if they were in the same boat as Satan, if they sinned and rebelled for the same reasons, why did God implement the plan of salvation?


"The degree of light given is the measure of responsibility. The path to heaven will be made plain to all who are faithful in the use of the knowledge they may obtain in regard to the future life. . . . Look at the first act of transgression in the Garden of Eden. To Adam and Eve were plainly stated the laws of Paradise, with the penalty for willful disobedience. They disobeyed, and disobedience brought its sure result. Death entered the world." {HP 153.2}

So, it's clear that theirs was a willful disobedience.

I think the answer to your question is in the words "The degree of light given is the measure of responsibility". They had light enough to sin willfully (because to them were plainly stated the laws of Paradise and the penalty for transgression), but not light enough for their case to be hopeless like that of Satan (because they didn't have a perfect knowledge of the character of God, like him).

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Rosangela] #103828
10/20/08 01:59 PM
10/20/08 01:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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So, did A&E rebel against God for the same reasons fallen angels did?

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Mountain Man] #103844
10/20/08 03:38 PM
10/20/08 03:38 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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If you mean, were they also deceived and did they also want more than what they were permitted to have, then I would say the answer is yes.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Daryl] #103865
10/21/08 04:26 PM
10/21/08 04:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Why, then, did Paul say, "Adam was not deceived"?

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Mountain Man] #103873
10/21/08 05:34 PM
10/21/08 05:34 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Adam wasn’t deceived by the serpent, but he ended up believing that nothing bad would result from his sin:

Adam was not deceived by the serpent, as was Eve, and it was inexcusable in Adam to rashly transgress God's positive command. Adam was presumptuous because his wife had sinned. He could not see what would become of Eve. He was sad, troubled, and tempted. He listened to Eve's recital of the words of the serpent, and his constancy and integrity began to waver. Doubts arose in his mind in regard to whether God did mean just as He said. He rashly ate the tempting fruit. {Con 86.1}

Eve led him to doubt God’s word and he was deceived to think that he wouldn’t in fact die if he ate the fruit:

Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law. But Adam fell, and by his sin he opened the floodgates of woe upon our world. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 2}

Eve yielded to temptation, and through her influence Adam also was deceived. They accepted the words of the serpent, that God did not mean what he said; they distrusted their Creator, and imagined that he was restricting their liberty, and that they might obtain great light and freedom by transgressing his law. {4SP 352.1}

In fact, everyone who sins is, in some way or other, being deceived by the thought that something good will result from it:

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:13 Encourage each other every day, while it is still called "today", and beware that none of you becomes deaf and blind to God through the delusive glamour of sin.

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Rosangela] #103905
10/22/08 02:28 PM
10/22/08 02:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I agree. My point has been that A&E did not rebel in the same way or for the same reasons the angels rebelled. Nor was Adam deceived in the same way or for the same reasons Eve was deceived.

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Mountain Man] #103907
10/22/08 03:13 PM
10/22/08 03:13 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Actually, MM, your point was that Adam and Eve did not rebel at all. When you started saying that Adam and Eve did not rebel, you did not qualify your remark in any way. You just said they didn't rebel.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - The Fall Into SIN [Re: Tom] #103909
10/22/08 03:15 PM
10/22/08 03:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law.


This kind of begs a question. Given that Satan only had access to Adam at the tree, and Adam wasn't deceived by Satan there, how did Satan deceive Adam?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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