Regarding the order? Why do you think it's the other way around? In what I quoted it says, "At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on ..." and then, later on it says, "As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed."

So the advance upon the city comes first, then comes the judgment.

They don't get over the judgment.

Here is the chronology:

Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" {GC 662.2}

As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City. {GC 662.3}

Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. . . He proposes to lead them [the resurrected sinners] against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. {GC 663.1}

At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on. . . By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset. {GC 664.3}

Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. . . The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. {GC 666.1}

And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. {GC 666.1}

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. {GC 666.2}

They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun, while the redeemed cast their crowns at the Saviour's feet, exclaiming: "He died for me!" {GC 667.2}

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}

As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. {GC 668.4}

Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. {GC 669.1}

As Satan looks upon his kingdom, the fruit of his toil, he sees only failure and ruin. He has led the multitudes to believe that the City of God would be an easy prey; but he knows that this is false. {GC 669.2}

And now Satan bows down and confesses the justice of his sentence. {GC 670.2}

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. . . He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. . . but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. {GC 671.2}

Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. . . The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." {GC 673.1}

And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

MM, you wrote:



But first comes this:



which is the attack on the New Jerusalem. This comes before the judgment, which is here:



Right?

Yeah, I got the order wrong. Sorry. Thanx for steering me right. However, what I was trying to point out is the fact judgment knowledge of their sinfulness is not what causes them to die. They are still very much alive by the time God rains down fire upon them. It is this fire, literal fire, that causes them to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness - not judgment knowledge of their loss and sinfulness. Neither are they destroyed when exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus.

Here's an enumerated chronology events (the same one posted above). See my summary afterward.

1. Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" {GC 662.2}

2. As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City. {GC 662.3}

3. Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. . . He proposes to lead them [the resurrected sinners] against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. {GC 663.1}

4. At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on. . . By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset. {GC 664.3}

5. Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. . . The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

6. In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. {GC 666.1}

7. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. {GC 666.1}

8. As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. {GC 666.2}

9. They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun, while the redeemed cast their crowns at the Saviour's feet, exclaiming: "He died for me!" {GC 667.2}

10. The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}

11. As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. {GC 668.4}

12. Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. {GC 669.1}

13. As Satan looks upon his kingdom, the fruit of his toil, he sees only failure and ruin. He has led the multitudes to believe that the City of God would be an easy prey; but he knows that this is false. {GC 669.2}

14. And now Satan bows down and confesses the justice of his sentence. {GC 670.2}

15. Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. . . He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. . . but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. {GC 671.2}

16. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

17. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. . . The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. {GC 672.2}

18. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." {GC 673.1}

19. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

20. While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

21. "I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

A) They are exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus on two different occasions and it does not destroy them. It happens before they are judged, before they suffer agony over their sinfulness. Thus, exposure to the radiant glory of Jesus is not what causes them to suffer and die. In fact, in stead of causing them agony and death, it causes them to praise Him. See 1 and 5 above.

B) They are judged and deemed worthy of death. Judgment knowledge of their loss and sinfulness does destroy them. They are still very much alive afterward. See 7-16 above.

C) While they are raging against Satan and his agents of deception, God rains down literal fire upon them. Each sinner suffers in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness and then dies. Satan is the last to die. See 17, 18, 20, and 21 above.

D) The righteous praise God for punishing and destroying them according to their sinfulness. See 19 above.

Thank you for recognizing this.

Regarding the rest of the post, this looks to be suffering from the same shortcomings I've pointed out previously. You're only quoting from GC 673, the description of a vision. The interpretation of the vision (e.g. DA 764, GC 541-543) is missing. To quote one of these:



How does this fit in? Also, DA 107,108 tells us that the same thing that gives life to the righteous slays the wicked. How does this work?

Tom, I totally disagree with your assessment of the GC record of end time events. There is no indication whatsoever that it is a vision in need of interpretation. Neither is there any indication that the record in DA is an interpretation. Both say the same thing about the effects of the radiant light of God's glory and presence upon the wicked.

"By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."

God is presently veiling His glory and presence. Therefore, sinners are able to live without being burned up. The "glory" of God is many things - His character, His goodness, His light, etc. The context determines which aspect of His glory is applicable.

At the end of time, when God rains down 1) fire from above and raises up 2) fire from below His glory is the radiant light of His glorious presence. The unveiled light that radiates from His physical presence is a 3) fire that causes sinful flesh and rubbish to burn up. The combined effect of all three sources of fire contributes to punishment and destruction of sin and sinners.

The reason the righteous are not also destroyed by these three sources of fire is twofold: 1) they are safely hidden within the walls of New Jerusalem from the first two sources of fire, and 2) they possess sinless flesh and are therefore not consumed by the radiant glory of God's firelight and presence.

The righteous were endowed with conditional immortality (i.e. they must regularly eat from the tree of life) when they were raised and resurrected. Thus, they already have life, that is, it isn't the radiant glory of God's firelight that gave them life. No doubt it adds to the life they already have, but it certainly isn't their only source of life.

Light of various types effects things differently depending on its material composition. For example, sunlight hardens clay and melts wax. In the case of the firelight that radiates from God's physical presence, it burns up people who possess sinful flesh and adds to the life of people who possess sinless flesh.

Above I wrote: A) They are exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus on two different occasions and it does not destroy them. It happens before they are judged, before they suffer agony over their sinfulness. Thus, exposure to the radiant glory of Jesus is not what causes them to suffer and die. In fact, instead of causing them agony and death, it causes them to praise Him. See 1 and 5 above.

Obviously, therefore, the glory of the firelight of Jesus is veiled somehow, some way to prevent sinners from burning up. Otherwise, they would burn up.

Bummer. I responded to this, but I don't see it.

Here's a short response.

1.God's glory is His character:



This is straight from Scripture. When Moses asked God to reveal His glory, God did so. What was revealed to Moses? Light? First? No, but Moses' face glowed from the glory of God, so much so those who saw him had to be veiled.

There's an important lesson here, which is that the revelation of God's glory (His character!) has physical ramifications.

2.The same thing that gives life to the righteous slays the wicked.



Since literal fire does not give life to the righteous, it can not be literal fire which slays the wicked.

3.Although 1 is sufficient to establish that the glory of God is His character, future evidence that this is what DA 108 is referring to is seen by considering the very next sentence:



Light = revelation; Glory = character. It's right there in the underlined sentence!

4.The issue involved is spiritual, not physical. The problem the wicked have is not with God's physical presence, but with His character.

1. The expression "the glory of God" means many things. The context determines what it means. It does not always refer to the character of God. "... the revelation of God's glory (His character!) has physical ramifications." When in the presence of Jesus the religious leaders were not impressed with His character. In fact, they concluded He was demon possessed. The only time they experienced "physical ramifications" was when "divinity flashed through humanity".

2. The righteous were already alive; therefore, the light of God's radiant glory (the light that shines from Him!) is not what gave them light. Regularly eating the fruit of life perpetuates their life. The brightness of God's glory no doubt contributes in a meaningful way to their life perhaps in some photosynthetic way. But the same light causes sinners and sinful flesh to burn up in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness.

3. Yes, sometimes the expression "the glory of God" is a reference to His glorious character. "It would dishonor His own glorious character to let streams of grace come upon the people who will not wear the yoke of Christ, who will not bear His burdens, who will not deny self, who will not lift the cross of Christ. {WM 306.3}

4. The problem was spiritual while their was hope for the wicked. But when they committed the unpardonable sin the problem became physical.

Here's a statement defining the glory of God.



Now you are asserting this statement is not true, or, at least, not always true; that is, that God's glory is not necessarily His character -- it might be something else. Since we're dealing with EGW here, can you produce some statement where says that God's glory is not His character?



Right. So it can not be this which causes the death of the wicked.



Knowing God perpetuates their life: Jesus said, "To know God is life eternal."



This would appear to be a very shallow way of looking at things.



So is this. The issue involved is spiritual, not physical. It can't be understood going about it this way.



Ok, it's good to see you don't see EGW's statement as being 100% false.



The problem is a spiritual problem. Angels, spiritual beings, suffer the same problem as humans. Committing the unpardonable sin doesn't change the nature of their problem. That you would come to such an illogical conclusion should cause you to question how you're going about things, MM. How can you justify switching a spiritual problem into a physical one? Also the fact that you're straining with statements like "The brightness of God's glory no doubt contributes in a meaningful way to their life perhaps in some photosynthetic way" should be a clue you're barking up the wrong tree.

Here's a much easier explanation: Jesus Christ is the light of the glory of God, the revealer of God's character.



This is the very next sentence after the light of the glory of God quote:



Why would you prefer the idea of "God's glory no doubt contributes in a meaningful way to their life perhaps in some photosynthetic way" to what was actually said? "Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God."

Light = revelation; Glory = character. Put these together and you get "the revealer of the character of God," which is exactly what was stated! There's nothing here about photosynthesis.

In reference to post 103258 above on this thread:

Judgment knowledge of their sinfulness is not what causes them to die. They are still very much alive by the time God rains down fire upon them. It is this fire, literal fire, that causes them to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness - not judgment knowledge of their loss and sinfulness. Neither are they destroyed when exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus.

A) They are exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus on two different occasions and it does not destroy them. It happens before they are judged, before they suffer agony over their sinfulness. Thus, exposure to the radiant glory of Jesus is not what causes them to suffer and die. In fact, in stead of causing them agony and death, it causes them to praise Him. See 1 and 5 above.

B) They are judged and deemed worthy of death. Judgment knowledge of their loss and sinfulness does destroy them. They are still very much alive afterward. See 7-16 above.

C) While they are raging against Satan and his agents of deception, God rains down literal fire upon them. Each sinner suffers in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness and then dies. Satan is the last to die. See 17, 18, 20, and 21 above.

D) The righteous praise God for punishing and destroying them according to their sinfulness. See 19 above.