Hey, I was hoping to add to the discussion to point out things that were pointed out in class at, actually mostly the Seminary, with a little from college, and some from discussion with members of the ATS at a conference in Loma Linda when they were advertising another conference supporting the "about" 6,000 years to be held in another part of the country. (the reasoning is that 7,000 to 21,000 are closer to 6,000 than it is to millions and billions so go with the traditional term, yet not get right on 6,000 because of that Ellen White passage.) I feel sad when my posts end up being the last post or ending discussion.

Kevin

Know that your posts are appreciated. Its good when all oppinion gets some facts to deal with. Its a bit unfortunate that topics sometimes die out, but as in this one, I dont know what to add (and I dont remember the webpage I downloaded the hebrew timeline book from).
I want to encourage you to continue posting as time and knowledge allows.

/Thomas

Thank you Thomas

The Hebrew year is 5766 this link shows us what is going on in the Hebrew Calander. http://www.science.co.il/Jewish-Holidays.asp

Kevin, according to the Jews, as Thomas and Dan have posted the earth is under 6000 years by about two and a quarter centuries. A couple days ago I came across a quote from a Jewish rabbinical authority, I'm not sure if the quote was from the Talmud or a commentary on the Talmud but it pronounced a curse on anyone who attempted to interpret the prophecy of Daniel 9 and apply it to history. If I remember right, that other non-Jew I referred to believed that the gap in Jewish chronology was designed to divorce Jewish history from the first Advent of Christ. I'll try to find the quote.

In the mean time, if you have the time, can you find the quote and the article you referred to.

I found the quote, but not from the original text so beware. I think it is accurate because the source seems credible:

Quote:

---

“May the bones of the hands and the bones of the fingers decay and decompose, of him who turns the pages of the book of Daniel, to find out the time of Daniel 9:24-27, and may his memory rot from off the face of the earth forever.”
(Talmudic Law, p.978, Section 2, Line 28)

---

A few comments Kevin on your post. Almost all, if not all Christian Bible chronologists and secular too agree on the following dates - 30 to 33 AD as the date of the crucifixion, 457 or 458 BC as the date of the second return of the Jews from captivity, 586BC as the date of the destruction of the temple, or very close to that date. From 586BC we can work backwards because the reigns of the Kings are given and we have points in history that confirm the chronology such as the siege of Jerusalem during Hezekiah’s reign by the Assyrians. When we get back to Rehaboam, the chronologists still are quite united that the beginning of his reign was about 950BC. They disagree by only about 50 years on the outside. The Exodus is similar - about a 50 year difference between most chronologists. The King James version is based on reliable manuscripts that have been updated over the years but even in Ussher's day most scholars agreed that the Biblical account attributes 1656 years as the exact time between creation and the flood. So besides the 50 year difference during the Kings the only other period that is doubtful to some is between the flood and the exodus and more than half of that period is specifically given in Genesis. So if the KJV manuscripts are reliable, we are pretty close in our calculations. The fact that the Jews are under 6000 years is further support for the position that KJV chronology (chronology based on manuscripts used by the translators of the KJV) is close.

Re the word ‘about’, when people say something happened over a period of ‘about 450’ years, like it does in Acts 13, do you think that can mean anywhere from 450 years to 1300 years? I would say it means plus or minus maybe a dozen years. If someone says ‘about’ 6000 years, unless the context indicates otherwise, I would say they mean plus or minus 100 to 500. But when Ellen White uses it, she is talking to Adventists who she knows understand her to mean not more than 6000 but somewhat under that number IMO.

Mark, I was only telling how the seminary professors and members of the conservative Adventist Theologica Society accepts the "'About' 6000 years" to be from 7,000 to 21,000. I am simply repeating what was being taught at the seminary under the leadership of Gerhard Hassel, who if you remember was very conservative and very focused on supporting traditions.

THEIR argument for the wide gap for the word "About" is that 7,000 years, or 10,000 years or 21,000 years are a lot closer to 6,000 years than it is to Millions or Billions, and to emphesise that they are supporting the younger world and litteral creation that they use the term that Creationists have tended to use, 6,000 years. The wide range of the "about" is based on the very wide differences between the acient manuscripts in the ages added together, and whether or not, and if so, how they apply what has been learned about ancient geneologies applied to the list.

The earliest event that we can scholars can pinpoint with other events in the ancient world is an event in the life of Soloman, and from that date they can give a good estamate to Saul, before then scholars say is purely speculation, but due to simmilarities with culture, there are two periods set for the exodus, about 1450 or 1200 something. Most liberals traditionally support the 1200 date, while conservatives and moderates have been split between the two dates (Traditionally Adventists tend to support the 1450 date, and I lean towards the 1450 date) Scholars also have a fair guess as to Abraham based on how long they understand the Hebrews to have been in Egypt and which Exodus they choose, and by cultural events you see in Abraham's life. Before Abraham you run into the issue of the different numbers given for ages in the different manuscripts, which using Usher's methods would give about (with a tighter use of about) 6,000 years from the Babylonian textual family; 7,000 to 10,000 years by the Egyptain family (Paul's Bible); and 8,000 to 9,000 years old by the Palistanian family (Jesus' Bible). As well as the issue of the geneologies sometimes being genetic other times being other forms of grouping people together, and that traditionally geneologies tend to skip generations.

I'm sorry Mark, but all these ancient texts are "THE BIBLE" and if we want to be fair to the Bible, we need to read geneologies in the light of the ancient world instead of reading them through western 21 centurary glasses.

And don't forget Mark, these arguments are from the conservative Adventist Theological Society, who are quote open to wanting to get to as close as they can to the age of 6,000 years but yet be fair to the Bible.

Don't forget, today's Hebrew year is based on one of the great Rabbis from the time of Jesus (or shortly thereafter) having moved to Judiah from the Jewish Community in Babylon and prefering the text that he grew up with, rather than then text that was used in Judah or the European Jewish communities, and it was this text that was rescued at the fall of Jerusalem in A. D. 70 and developed into the Masseritic Text, and that some other Jews liked this Rabbi's preference because they were teaching the 6,000 years corrisponding to the days of creation and that the 7,000 year would be the age of the Messiah, and that Christianity was saying that Jesus was the Messiah and Jesus lived at the time their Bible said the 7,000 year would be dawning.

Yes, I follow you. I'm an uninformed layman when it comes to the manuscripts of the Bible. I've only read enough to be persuaded that the texts behind the King James are more reliable than others.

Regarding the Bible of Paul and Jesus, there is likely a difference of opinion there as well among scholars. Without knowing anything about the evidence, as a principle of inspiration, it seems likely to me that Christ and the Apostles had accurate manuscripts available to them, equal to and maybe more accurate than those behind the KJV. On the surface, it seems like speculation to me to suggest we can know with any certainty what manuscripts existed back then that have not survived. Today we know about the Dodo bird because someone in the 18th century documented it. We are lucky to have that information. Unlike the Dodo bird, whole lines of manscripts may have exists and may have vanished without a trace.