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Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #105301
11/29/08 05:37 AM
11/29/08 05:37 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:Present some evidence that Scripture teaches that justice demands that death is necessary in order for God to be able to forgive past sins.

M:Tom, the Jews were required to confess their sins upon the head of a subsstitutional sacrifice and then kill it. Pardon could be secured in no other way. God could not grant pardon without the death of a substitute. Death was required to grant and receive the benefits of forgiveness.


This isn't evidence! This is simply your repeating your belief.

For thousands of years people read of these sacrifices with no idea that the death of a sacrifice was necessary to earn the right for God to be able to pardon. The Eastern Orthodox church even today, for example, knows nothing of this idea. Why not? Because they branched away from the Catholic church before Anselm's teachings. For 1,000 years (actually longer, since Anselm's ideas were a predecessor to the idea you've expressed) the idea you are suggesting wasn't mentioned.

The idea of justice in the OT was restorative, not retributive. Justice was restoring the community to shalom. The following, for example, speaks of justice:

Quote:
Thus says the LORD of hosts:


"Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion
Everyone to his brother."

(Zech. 7:9)


There are many, many OT verses which deal with justice, speaking of taking care of the widow and the poor, of doing what is right; all of these have inherent in them the idea of restoration. There's no OT text which says that justice demanded a sacrifice in order for God to be able to forgive.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #105455
12/02/08 02:17 PM
12/02/08 02:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yes, it is evidence. Can you name one time when God was able to pardon a sinner without requiring the substitutionary death of a sacrifice? No, of course not. Why not? Why can't God just freely forgive someone without a substitutionary sacrifice? And, what about past sins? Why can't God just freely forgive them without a substutitionary sacrifice? If you have already answered these questions then please forgive me for not recalling. Also, please answer them plainly, that is, don't make me pry and dig to get you to answer them clearly, plainly. Thank you.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #105462
12/02/08 05:17 PM
12/02/08 05:17 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Sure, Lucifer. God was able to pardon Lucifer. Lucifer rejected the pardon, but God was able to pardon him.

The whole point, MM, is that God *was* able to pardon Lucifer without the death of Christ. This is why your line of thought is off, regarding the death of Christ being necessary to enable God to pardon.

If God had not been able to grant the pardon, He could not have offered the pardon. The offer of the pardon requires the ability to grant the pardon, otherwise it wouldn't have been a genuine offer; it would have been bogus.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #105463
12/02/08 07:05 PM
12/02/08 07:05 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Why can't God just freely forgive them without a substutitionary sacrifice? If you have already answered these questions then please forgive me for not recalling.


Yes, this question has been asked and answered. The best explanation I know is the following:

Quote:
Let us ask another question, Why did God not pardon the sinner without the sacrifice of Christ? Was it because he did not love man sufficiently? – Ah, no! God is revealed through Jesus Christ. Christ says, “I and my Father are one.” At the crucifixion, both the expression of the divine love and the revelation of the world’s depths of defiant sin came to the climax. But even there Jesus, dying on the cross while the unrepentant world scoffed at its feet, poured forth his soul’s longings for man in these words, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”
Thus is revealed how God feels even toward an unrepentant world. He longs to forgive them. Why does he not do it? – Such an act would ignore his law and set it at naught, thus leading others to thoughtlessly violate it. But the violation of that law brings as an unavoidable result misery and death. No forgiveness that could not remove these would be worth having. A forgiveness that led more men into them would be a curse rather that a blessing. Every good father has at times felt a desire to grant his child some present pleasure, but has been compelled to forbear, for fear of future pain....

Sin is secession from the government of God. Satan seceded, and sought to exalt his throne above that of God. Sinners are those who have joined themselves to Satan’s forces in the secession. God, in infinite love, sens his own and only Son to put down the rebellion. He cannot pardon those who are still in rebellion, for this would but justify the rebellion and dishonor the law, and so perpetuate and multiply the misery. But through Jesus this rebellion is finally to be put down entirely. “The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent’s head.” O’er every hilltop of earth and heaven, where for a short time there has waved the black standard of the man of sin, there shall forever float the white pennon of the Prince of Peace.
Every one who lays down his arms and surrenders his opposing will to God has the promise of pardon. This pardon God can grant, and not dishonor his law. Yea, more, it is through this pardon that the mercy and love of God’s law and government are revealed, -- a love that only commanded the right way, not to be arbitrary and domineering, but that men might be happy, -- a love what when men repent of the wrong, and turn back their hearts toward the broken law, is ever willing to forgive the past and give power for future obedience. It is thus that God can be just, and still the justifier of those who believe on Jesus. (God is Love, Fifield)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #105470
12/02/08 10:21 PM
12/02/08 10:21 PM
A
Aaron  Offline
Regular Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
It seems that God can and does forgive us even without the blood of Jesus. But the problem is even though we might be forgiven we are still broken. We are sick with a disease of sin. We need restored back to the way we were before Adam sinned. It has nothing to do with whether God forgives us or not.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Aaron] #105474
12/03/08 12:34 AM
12/03/08 12:34 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
When one speaks of forgiveness, there are two side to that. One is the person willing to forgive, and the other is the person needing the forgiveness repenting and being willing to accept that forgiveness. So say there are two married people, A & B, and B commits adultery. Say A is willing to forgive B. Even if A is willing to forgive B, A & B's relationship cannot be restored unless B is willing to repent and accept that forgiveness. Repentance would have to include, of course, being willing not to continue in adultery. So even though A can offer to forgive B, that forgiveness cannot actually be granted without the willing participation of B.

Similarly God has always been willing to forgive man; He is forgiveness personified. We see this clearly revealed in Christ. When Peter asked if he should forgive 7 times (thinking this was a great thing, so rabbinic tradition spoke of forgiving 3 times), Jesus answered not 7 times, but 70 times 7. Jesus taught often in regards to forgiveness, His constant theme being that we should freely forgive those who have wronged us. As Jesus was being crucified He prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Since Jesus revealed the Father, we see the Father as One who is supremely willing to forgive, as One who forgives freely. However, there still remains the problem of man's being willing to repent and accept that forgiveness, as well as being willing not to "commit adultery" any more.

Because man was so messed up, it took as supreme revelation of God to enable him to be healed. As Fifield put it:

Quote:
The life of Christ was not the price paid to the father for our pardon; but the life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. (God is Love)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #105479
12/03/08 03:01 AM
12/03/08 03:01 AM
A
Aaron  Offline
Regular Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
We have to remember that God never changed. We changed. Our attitudes toward Him changed and not the other way around.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Aaron] #105537
12/04/08 03:51 AM
12/04/08 03:51 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, do you agree with Aaron - "It seems that God can and does forgive us even without the blood of Jesus." Can you think of an example of God forgiving a sinner without the death of Jesus?

PS - We're already discussing the issues you raised in your last post elsewhere, so I'll not address them here.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #105544
12/04/08 02:09 PM
12/04/08 02:09 PM
A
Aaron  Offline
Regular Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
Does forgiveness equal salvation? Is it possible to be forgiven without being saved? Do you think God will have an unforgiving heart, or hold a grudge against all the lost for all of eternity?
Why would God be precluded from forgiving without the death of Jesus?

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Aaron] #105609
12/05/08 02:12 PM
12/05/08 02:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
1. Does forgiveness equal salvation? Yes.

2. Is it possible to be forgiven without being saved? No.

3. Do you think God will have an unforgiving heart? No.

4. Will He hold a grudge against all the lost for all of eternity? No.

5. Why would God be precluded from forgiving without the death of Jesus? Because law and justice demand death for sin and God upholds His law which is a transcript of His character.

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